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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 26, 2010 20:36:53 GMT 12
Does anyone know who the first New Zealander was that was the first to go into air to air combat with an enemy aircraft?
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Post by baz62 on Mar 26, 2010 20:43:07 GMT 12
Woah now there's a question! Must be WW 1 then so over to the experts!
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shane
Squadron Leader
Posts: 122
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Post by shane on Mar 27, 2010 7:44:00 GMT 12
Keith Caldwell and his observer shot down a Roland C2 on the 18th September 1916 while flying a BE2D. Not sure if that was the first but its a start.
Shane
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 27, 2010 19:29:58 GMT 12
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Post by shorty on Mar 28, 2010 12:00:42 GMT 12
The engagement that 2nd Lt W.B Rhodes-Moorehouse RFC was awarded his VC for was on 26-4-15. He was a New Zealander (the son of Edward Moorhouse a Canterbury pioneer) but did his action include any air to air combat? He was flying a BE.2C at Coutrai in Belgium and it was the first VC awarded to an airman.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Mar 28, 2010 14:10:30 GMT 12
Negative. I have been fighting this delusion for years, ever since MoTAT bought it up. As I recollect it, Rhodes-Moorehouse the father was an Englishman who came to NZ and worked here, marrying a New Zealand (Maori) lady during that time. The couple then returned to the UK where William Barnard Rhodes-Moorhouse was born, raised and educated. He did come to New Zealand for just a few months prior to WW1 to look up family business interests, then returned to the UK. He enrolled in the RFC in the UK. So, by any measure, he was not a New Zealander - no more than I can claim to be British because my mother was born there and I have visited the place. I think the 'New Zealander' claim rises out of a public relations effort by the NZ Government at the time to promote recruiting for the war effort, and the error has been perpetuated ever since. I don't disparage Rhodes-Moorhouse' achievements, but the New Zealand connection is tenuous at best. |
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Post by shorty on Mar 28, 2010 16:11:26 GMT 12
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Post by Peter Lewis on Mar 28, 2010 17:43:45 GMT 12
So does MoTAT, where I first got into this argument. They said the Pavlova was Australian as well.
A fallacy repeated does not make it true.
In 1420 they would have told you the world was flat.
Look at the facts man, the facts!
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Post by corsair67 on Mar 28, 2010 18:19:44 GMT 12
Yep, he was definitely a Pom, and is even buried on the family estate in the UK.
Sadly, his son, William, was killed during the Battle of Britain.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 30, 2010 20:56:16 GMT 12
He may have been English born and bred, but also under the law he would be considered a Maori too, surely?
And no, I had already looked into this case before posting my question and Rhodes-Moorhouse VC was killed by groundfire.
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 5, 2010 10:44:30 GMT 12
An item in the Poverty Bay Herald of Thursday, 6th of April, 1916 has the following :
" A cablegram has been sent by a number of Wellington lawyers to Flight Sub-Lieutenant Alfred de Bathe Brandon, son of Mr A. de Bathe Brandon of Wellington, congratulating him upon having surmounted and bombed a Zeppelin. "
Now, March or April 1916 was well into the War, but this could be a possibility..
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 5, 2010 11:17:32 GMT 12
I see that Lt Brandon, Royal Flying Corps was awarded the Military Cross for his attack on the L15 on the night of 31/3/16.
The airship came down off the Thames Estuary, but it cannot be concluded that the Zepp. was destroyed solely by Mr Brandon as it had been engaged by AA guns as well.
Still, a noteworthy effort and properly rewarded by the award of the MC.
Later that year he was admitted to the Distinguished Service Order for his part in the destruction of the L33 over Potters Bar.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 5, 2010 11:32:31 GMT 12
So he was likely the first NZ'er to shoot down a Zeppelin, but who was the first kiwi to shoot down a convenetional aeroplane (or simply get into air combat with one) I wonder?
It could of course have been an Observer to score the first kill rather than a Pilot too.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 11, 2010 23:12:36 GMT 12
As an aside it seems the NZ papers were calling Rhodes Moorehouse a New Zealander from the moment he became famous. Funny how they don't let the facts get in the way of the story. But I wonder who it was that said first "Oh, he's a New Zealander". Maybe he did consider himself a kiwi?? paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=PBH19150626.2.53.3 |
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 12, 2010 0:08:19 GMT 12
Dave, I read a short review of Errol Martyn's new book "Swift to the Sky" last week (can't recall where though!), and it mentioned that this book goes into some detail about New Zealander aircrew who served in WWI.
How much detail though, I guess we won't know until we actually see a copy.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 12, 2010 12:29:07 GMT 12
I had heard that Errol has been worling on a book about NZ'ers in the RFC, RNAS and RAF etc but didn't realise it was this book. I'll keep an eye out for it.
It has been interesting reading a few stories I wasn't aware of whilst looking for evidence of early kiwi aerial combatants in the old newspapers.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 16, 2010 0:19:20 GMT 12
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Post by wanganui on Apr 23, 2010 23:29:22 GMT 12
Just received a copy of Errol's book in the post today, the first copy in England!!
Without going into detail as i'm sure you'll all be buying the book yourself, New Zealands first airman who saw "action in the air" was Hawkes Bay born Hugh Lambert Reilly. He is documented as flying operationally as an observer in 24th Sept 1914 & almost certainly earlier. Kerry
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