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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 15, 2010 19:19:55 GMT 12
I got an excelent book from the library yesterday called 'Private Paton's Pictures' by Harold Paton. He was a photographer with the Herald before the war who found himself become the official photographer to the 2nd NZEF in North Africa and Syria in WWII. The book is a collection of his stunningly good photos of kiwi soldiers behind the lines. On page 92 is the following photo that has me baffled as the caption reckons it's a Lysander and I dfinately disagree with this, but what is it? My thought was a Nord Norseman but a look round the net shows they had three-bladed props, and this has only two. With the silver fern on the cowl it must have had and RNZAF pilot so I'm curious as to what it is, and which unit it flew with, and a long stretch here - who the pilot was.  |
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Post by curtiss on Jun 15, 2010 21:30:58 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2010 10:43:17 GMT 12
Aha, thanks very much.
So, which RAF units were operating the Stinson Vigilant in North Africa/Middle East then I wonder?
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Post by phasselgren on Jun 16, 2010 17:22:48 GMT 12
The Long Range Desert Group had one or two light planes and a believe at least one New Zealander as pilot. I will check the book "Kiwi Scorpions" after work.
Peter
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2010 19:24:02 GMT 12
Thanks Peter.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 16, 2010 19:36:14 GMT 12
Aha, thanks very much. So, which RAF units were operating the Stinson Vigilant in North Africa/Middle East then I wonder? RAF ? Try Army. The fernleaf is the 2nd NZEF tactical symbol is the give away. Reference. G Patrol - Story of the Guards Patrol of the LRDG by Michael C Stuart. Pg 98 'The Aircraft Section, already mentioned, consisted of two small unarmed WACO biplanes which normally flew together for company, piloted by Colonel Prendergast and Sgt (late Lt) Barker of the NZEF.' It goes on to explain it gave the CO mobility to visit patrol, ferry critical spares and collect sick & wounded . The first reference (pg 83) explains that for unit administration and comms between Cario, the Western Desert and the Sudan aircraft were obvious but the RAF refused to help and in fact obstructed. The LRDG persuaded the Army to purchase two Wacos from Egyptian owners. Major Guy Prendergast (then the 2IC) and an experienced kiwi pilot, Trooper Barker joined the LRDG as pilots. They trained their own navigators, did their own ground staff work and brought spare parts direct from the USA. The RAF continued to obstruct refusing permission for the aircraft to carry roundels or allocate serial numbers. In typical special forces fashion 'the LTDG invoked "stratrospheric authority who finally shot them down in flames". Paul |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2010 20:59:47 GMT 12
The only problem I have with that Paul is, this is not a Waco biplane, or a biplane of any sort. I agree with Curtiss that it is a Stinson Vigilant. So, did the LRDG or NZEF operate one of them too?
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 16, 2010 21:17:56 GMT 12
I agree it is a Stinson. I'm checking through the Guards book to see if there are any later aircraft types are mentioned. Unfortunately there is no index in the book.
Must admit I don't recall ever reading that the NZ divison used it's own aircraft . The LRDG link I did remember.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 16, 2010 21:31:04 GMT 12
The silver fern was not exclusive to the NZEF by the way. All the Hurricanes of No. 58 Squadron carried it, for example.
It would be neat to see photos of the Wacos though, and any other aircraft the NZEF may have owned/used.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 16, 2010 22:47:47 GMT 12
The silver fern was not exclusive to the NZEF by the way. All the Hurricanes of No. 58 Squadron carried it, for example. Yes I'm aware of that but there a various versions of the fern. A first glance I thought the one on the aircraft had been done to the 2nd NZDF pattern. I can now confirm that it is not as it doesn't have the characteristic little flick to the left at the top of the fern. Paul |
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Post by barnstormer on Jun 17, 2010 3:36:19 GMT 12
It would be neat to see photos of the Wacos though, and any other aircraft the NZEF may have owned/used. Hi Dave; Not sure if this is appropriate thread for this image from my Chris Ashworth photo/neg collection.? RNZAF not NZEF.. Still a nice shot of RNZAF Waco QDC NZ 570, #31. Was Civil Register ZK-ACV until impressed by military. Was broken up in Sept. 1940. And I did not find this image on a Google search, so may be of interest..  |
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Post by phasselgren on Jun 17, 2010 7:05:13 GMT 12
Aha, thanks very much. So, which RAF units were operating the Stinson Vigilant in North Africa/Middle East then I wonder? RAF ? Try Army. The fernleaf is the 2nd NZEF tactical symbol is the give away. Reference. G Patrol - Story of the Guards Patrol of the LRDG by Michael C Stuart. Pg 98 'The Aircraft Section, already mentioned, consisted of two small unarmed WACO biplanes which normally flew together for company, piloted by Colonel Prendergast and Sgt (late Lt) Barker of the NZEF.' It goes on to explain it gave the CO mobility to visit patrol, ferry critical spares and collect sick & wounded . The first reference (pg 83) explains that for unit administration and comms between Cario, the Western Desert and the Sudan aircraft were obvious but the RAF refused to help and in fact obstructed. The LRDG persuaded the Army to purchase two Wacos from Egyptian owners. Major Guy Prendergast (then the 2IC) and an experienced kiwi pilot, Trooper Barker joined the LRDG as pilots. They trained their own navigators, did their own ground staff work and brought spare parts direct from the USA. The RAF continued to obstruct refusing permission for the aircraft to carry roundels or allocate serial numbers. In typical special forces fashion 'the LTDG invoked "stratrospheric authority who finally shot them down in flames". Paul Adding some info from The Kiwi Scorpions by Brendan O´Carrol. The two a/c were called "Little" Waco (Waco YKZ, registred AX695 damaged beyond repair in landing accident 24 April 1942) and "Big" Waco (Waco ZGC7, registred AX697, served the LRDG to 1944). Both purchased from Egyptian businessmen in April 1941. "The aircraft displayed RAF roundels and below the cockpit appeared the LRDG initials. Also to the rear of the engine cowling was painted a black Kiwi insignia within a shield." |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 17, 2010 9:03:42 GMT 12
Thanks Peter. I never actually realised the LRDG came under the jurisdiction of the NZEF to be honest. I thought it was a british unit that had mainly kiwi and Rhodesian members hand picked for the job.
I have seen that shot of the Waco before Barnstormer but I cannot recall where. it was part of No. 42 Squadron, which was a Communications unit that was based at Rongotai, Wellington but operated throughout NZ.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jun 17, 2010 22:46:00 GMT 12
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Post by smithy on Jun 18, 2010 14:52:12 GMT 12
The silver fern was not exclusive to the NZEF by the way. All the Hurricanes of No. 58 Squadron carried it, for example. Do you have any photos you can post Dave? Very interested to see these Hurris. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 18, 2010 14:55:40 GMT 12
Sorry Tim, I don't have photos of the Hurricanes, but they were documented as such in press reports at the time. The squadron was around 2/3rds kiwis in early 1941 and they thought they were to receive the Spitfires that the NZ people were raising the money to buy. However a new squadron was formed, No. 485 (NZ) Squadron, and about half of 58 Sqn's pilots were posted into the new unit instead.
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Post by smithy on Jun 18, 2010 15:08:55 GMT 12
Sorry Tim, I don't have photos of the Hurricanes, but they were documented as such in press reports at the time. The squadron was around 2/3rds kiwis in early 1941 and they thought they were to receive the Spitfires that the NZ people were raising the money to buy. However a new squadron was formed, No. 485 (NZ) Squadron, and about half of 58 Sqn's pilots were posted into the new unit instead. Thanks for the info Dave. I'm thinking this might be a nice future modelling project. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 18, 2010 16:40:57 GMT 12
Actually I think there may be a photo of a 58 Squadron Hurricane in burma wearing the fern, in the Bently and Conly book. I'll check when I get home.
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Post by smithy on Jun 19, 2010 0:59:42 GMT 12
Be great to see it if there is Dave!
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Post by barnstormer on Jun 20, 2010 10:43:37 GMT 12
Do you know what Mark the Hurricanes were? sure would narrow down the search.
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