SAS involved in botched raid?

[corsair67]

Was just reading Stuff, and came across this sad story.




NZ soldiers in botched Kabul raid - report
MICHAEL FIELD - Stuff




New Zealand Special Air Service soldiers led a botched raid on a Kabul factory on Friday that left two Afghan workers dead and two with life threatening injuries, the Times newspaper reports.

Thirteen people were taken prisoner in the attack.

The New Zealand soldiers are identified in the report as the commander "Sean" and his deputy "James".

New Zealand has 71 SAS soldiers in Kabul attached to the NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

ISAF declined to disclose the nationalities of soldiers involved, but said the special forces soldiers opened fire in self defence.

A New Zealand Defence Force spokesman confirmed there had been activity involving New Zealand troops in Kabul but said the Times reported was "slanted''. He said more details would be released later.

The Afghan Government was angered by the incident because it was not advised it was taking place.

The Times said the raid was on a factory that NATO believed was implicated in a bomb attack on the US Embassy.

The factory housed Afghan Tiger Group, a logistic supply company servicing westerners.

It was raided shortly after midnight on Friday (Saturday morning NZT)

The Times said Nawid Shah Sakhizada, son of the owner, was on the third floor of his father's office block when his bodyguard burst in shouting they were under attack.

They heard men speaking Pashto and assumed that they were Taleban targeting their business for trading with Western contractors.

"I really thought I was dead, I thought that was it," Sakhizada said.

He and his bodyguard went into the stairwell to try and talk to the forces but were greeted with heavy return fire.

Sakhizada telephoned a friend at the Afghan intelligence service who called the police chief. Neither knew of the raid and when officials arrived they were held at a cordon for an hour.

The soldiers fired at them to stop them getting in, Sakhizada said.

In the raid two factory guards were killed. Mohammad Sadiq and Abdul Mobin were both married and had young children.

He said some of the soldiers were wearing uniforms. Some of them wore jeans and all had guns

Sakhizada, who speaks English, told the Times he spoke to two New Zealand soldiers who led the raid, Sean and James.

"They asked me if I was the owner of the building and they said they were really sorry," Sakhizada said.

"But I say apology is is not enough. Tomorrow I will have to go to these men's families....

"I told them, 'You did not kill two cows. You killed two human beings'."

Sakhizada said that the soldiers asked him not to speak to journalists.

"I agreed. But then the next day I saw on the news NATO said they had killed two terrorists and arrested all these people. It's bulls***. Where is the evidence? Where are these people they arrested?"

He said his employees did not shoot at the coalition forces.

"I want from international forces one thing: give an explanation to the families of the two security guards who were killed for nothing," Sakhizada said.

"I want justice."

ISAF said the troops were looking for vehicles packed with explosives to thwart a bomb attack on the US Embassy. It said it was a "credible threat". However, no explosives were found at the scene.

Tiger International President Shah Agha Sakhizada told Reuters he did not want any compensation and the incident to be handled by the Afghan courts.

"At the end of their brutal attack on my company, the troops stood up and apologised. We will never accept their apology," Shah Agha Sakhizada said.

Mohammad Zaher, head of criminal investigations for the Afghan police in Kabul, told Reuters the raid "was not based on correct information".

"This was a one-sided operation without the coordination of Kabul's police," he said.

"The method of the operation was wrong. When we arrived at the scene people were asking for help, but the foreigners were firing in all directions....

"We are demanding the punishment of those who were involved in this. They have proved nothing," Zaher said.

Since 2008 there have been protocols in place to give Afghan forces the right to lead raids in Kabul.

Afghan Interior Ministry official Zamerai Bashery said the protocols had not been followed but ISAF spokesman Brigadier-General Josef Blotz said they had.

"ISAF coordinated with Afghan security forces to move on an area of interest, so we followed the usual procedures and the operation was partnered," Blotz told a news conference.

Following the raid, Afghan Government officials said a senior Afghan general had been detained for his role in the raid.

An Afghan colonel who took part in the raid has been fired.

The ministry "found that Afghan and ISAF units didn't observe the agreed-upon regulations-that the Afghan national security forces are supposed to take the lead in operations in Kabul", said Bashary.

- with NZPA


www.stuff.co.nz/national/4499873/NZ-soldiers-in-botched-Kabul-raid-report

[guest]

UPDATE:

New Zealand Special Air Service (SAS) soldiers were part of a raid on a building in Kabul, Afghanistan in which two local men were killed but the patrol was acting in self defence, the New Zealand Defence Force says.

The Times newspaper reported the NZ SAS led the surprise attack on a factory in the capital when the two Afghan workers were killed and two others left with life-threatening injuries.

It said the raid had angered the Afghan Government because it was carried out without its approval and two NZ soldiers, identified as the unit commander "Sean and his deputy 'James'", had since apologised to the factory owners.

But NZDF said a joint Afghan National Security Force (ANSF) and International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) patrol which included New Zealanders was on an authorised operation in Kabul on December 24, following up a credible threat to attack the US Embassy.

Intelligence reports indicated there were two vehicles parked at a downtown building thought to be loaded with explosives and the forces were told to approach cautiously and to announce their identities, NZDF said.

The patrol identified themselves in both Pashto and English when they entered the target area.

NZDF said the soldiers "came under small-arms fire from armed security guards and the patrol was forced to act in self defence, killing two of the guards".

The patrol cleared the building and removed fifteen people, including two wounded. One man, described as being among the initial shooters, surrendered once troops reached the roof of the building.

A large number of weapons, including the small-arms used by the men who fired on the patrol, were found during the operation, NZDF said.

ISAF confirmed proper protocols and rules of engagement were correctly followed.

Afghan authorities and ISAF have launched an investigation and NZDF said it would be closely following its progress.

The New Zealand Defence Force did not say how many New Zealanders were involved.

- NZPA

NZHerald
www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10696986

[corsair67]

Sounds a lot like this operation was based on some bad intel?

This article also says that no explosives were found, and all prisoners were later released.



NZ troops in deadly raid 'obeyed rules'

From: AFP December 29, 2010 5:56PM



NEW Zealand special forces involved in a Kabul office raid in which two Afghan security guards died acted in self-defence and followed proper protocols, the defence force says.

Afghanistan's government has accused international forces of going beyond their mandate in storming the building on December 24 after intelligence reports linked it to a plot to attack the US embassy.

The NZ Defence Force (NZDF) confirmed troops from its Special Air Service took part in the operation, which the Afghan interior ministry described as "a heart-rending and tragic incident".

All 15 people captured in the raid were released that night on the intervention of an Afghan commander.

The NATO-led International Security Assistance Force organised the operation after receiving "advice of a credible threat to attack the US embassy", the NZDF said in a statement.

"Intelligence reports indicated there were two vehicles parked there that were thought to be loaded with explosives,'' it said.

It said the SAS troops identified themselves in Pashto and English when they approached the building but came under small-arms fire from security guards.

"The patrol was forced to act in self-defence, killing two of the guards," it said.

The soldiers captured 15 people, including two who were injured and received treatment from a medic, the NZDF said.

It said an Afghan National Security Forces commander subsequently arrived and took command of the scene, personally vouching for the captives, who were released.

The NZDF said "a large number of weapons", including small arms, were found but did not list explosives among the items captured.

"ISAF has confirmed that proper protocols and rules of engagement were correctly followed," it said.

"Afghan authorities and ISAF are conducting an investigation. The NZDF will be closely following its progress."

Afghan interior ministry spokesman Zemerai Bashary said on Sunday that international troops exceeded their mandate in the raid.

"This was a heart-rending and tragic incident. The forces involved in that operation, regardless of the rules and pre-agreements, conducted an operation within Kabul city," he said.

He said an Afghan general with responsibility for some of the police involved in the raid had been suspended and a colonel had been fired over the incident.

Responsibility for Kabul policing was transferred to Afghan police in 2008 and, according to Bashary, all military operations within the capital must be carried out by local forces, who can request support from the foreign military.

New Zealand has about 70 special forces troops in Afghanistan, believed to be operating in Kabul, as well as 140 personnel carrying out reconstruction work in Bamiyan.


www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/nz-troops-in-deadly-raid-obeyed-rules/story-fn3dxity-1225978167051

[Kenny]

Id hate to think the skills of the sas are being exploited by higher command in Kabul...

[luke6745]

Surprised John Minto hasn't hopped on the band wagon yet.

www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/4501368/Greens-attack-SAS-over-deadly-raid

Greens attack SAS over deadly raid
MICHAEL FIELD AND MICHAEL FOX

The Green Party has called on New Zealand's troops to stay in Afghanistan no longer than March, as a picture was released of one of the men killed in a bungled raid involving the SAS.

The New Zealand Defence Force yesterday confirmed Special Air Service (SAS) soldiers took place in a midnight raid on the Kabul premises of Tiger International Armour in which two security guards were killed.

A company owner identified the SAS soldiers as leading the raid, saying they were called "Sean" and "James".
Security guards Mohammad Sadiq and Abdul Mobin, both married and with young children, died in the attack. A photo of one of the men was released today.

Green Party foreign affairs spokesman Keith Locke was critical of the NZDF for not revealing earlier the SAS's part in the raid.

"We shouldn't have to wait for a British journalist to uncover the New Zealand involvement from an eyewitness," he said.

"Once again we have been reliant on foreign media to tell us what our SAS is doing in Afghanistan.

"The excessive secrecy around such operations has limited the much-needed public debate about whether our troops should stay there."

The debacle gave weight to the call to pull the SAS out of Afghanistan.

"Its mission should certainly not be extended beyond the planned withdrawal date of March 2011," Locke said.

He slammed the NZDF statement explaining the raid, saying it repeated a NATO spin which was upsetting Afghans.

"For example, both the NATO and NZDF statements talk about 'a large number of weapons' being uncovered in the building, something which the owners deny."

ISAF and the NZDF said the security guards fired on the soldiers during the Christmas Eve raid, a claim denied by business owner Nawid Shah Sakhizada from Kabul last night.

"When my guards come up into our room and said that this is ISAF firing, what shall we do? We just say that, OK, you are not allowed to fire, to shoot them. From the beginning our security guards did not fire on them," he said.

Hiding in an office with other workers, they had tried to assure the soldiers they were not Taleban but the troops opened fire, he said.

The NZDF said a "large number" of small arms were found on site but Sakhizada denied this.

Searches by the troops found nothing, he said, and after a high-ranking Afghan National Security Forces commander arrived and vouched for them, the SAS officers relented and apologised.

"But I say apology is not enough," he said. "I told them, 'You did not kill two cows. You killed two human beings'."

He had seen the patches on the soldiers' uniforms and spoken to their officers, and learned they were from New Zealand.

The NZDF and ISAF said credible threats of a planned attack on the US embassy had been received. The target area was an office building in downtown Kabul, next to the Tiger offices.

"Intelligence reports indicated there were two vehicles parked there that were thought to be loaded with explosives."

Advancing troops came under small-arms fire and killed two shooters. Fifteen others were detained using non-lethal force, they said. They were later freed.

A spokesman for Defence Minister Wayne Mapp said ISAF would investigate the incident.

The Kabul Government said the raid violated protocols which dictated that Afghan forces must lead operations in the capital.

Afghan police want a prosecution but the SAS, like all coalition forces, has immunity from civil prosecution.

New Zealand has 70 special forces troops in Afghanistan.

- Stuff and The Dominion Post

[phil]

I say send Keith over to Kabul to investigate. Of course he wont want the nasty SAS around to protect him, so we wont need to bother with that. I'm sure he'll do just fine.

[obiwan27]

Hear, hear!!! Isn't it amazing what a fantastic grasp of the 'facts' Mr Locke has based purely on one side of the story. Not surprising that he would not be supporting our troops, he is nothing but a 'useful idiot' to Taliban propaganda more like it.

www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/4503256/SAS-accusations-Taliban-propaganda-says-ex-army-chief

[Dave Homewood]

Keith Locke said:
"Green Party foreign affairs spokesman Keith Locke was critical of the NZDF for not revealing earlier the SAS's part in the raid.

"We shouldn't have to wait for a British journalist to uncover the New Zealand involvement from an eyewitness," he said.

"Once again we have been reliant on foreign media to tell us what our SAS is doing in Afghanistan.

"The excessive secrecy around such operations has limited the much-needed public debate about whether our troops should stay there."

Once again Locke has demonstrated that he has no idea of what clandestine special force operatives do and the nature of their warfare. He has obviously never picked up a book on the SAS and got to grips with what they actually are.

How on earth did somebody like him get given the role of being spokesman for matters of Foreign Affairs and Defence, even if it is for a clueless little waste of space party such as that he belongs to.

And how is it he is continually the one quoted by the media when anything to do with Defence matters comes up. Don't the other parties have Defence spokespeople? There are some priorities way out of whack here. Especially as no-one has ever actually voted Locke into Parliament.

His own page on the Green site states, "There’s something astonishingly youthful about Keith Locke." Yep, he has the brains of a spoiled two year old.

[nige]

Unlike the overtly biased article written by Michael Field (not quite his usual style) I have no reason to doubt the viewpoints expressed by the NZDF (they aren't in the habit of issuing misleading press releases - I'm sure even Keith Locke couldn't ever dredge up a misleading NZDF press release, ever).

Until the facts are known, I wouldn't put too much weight on the Afghan version of events - everything said by them contradicts how we know the SAS to operate, which is what Lou Gardiner is saying.

Incidentally the contrasting media coverage is "interesting" (especially when the story broke) - on the one side of the media conglomerates in NZ we have the Michael Field/Fairfax version which took a sensational position (looks like stolen from The Times) without waiting for the facts to emerge and on the other side APN took a more measured approach:
www.nzherald.co.nz/defence/news/article.cfm?c_id=32&objectid=10697049

The lesson to be learnt: Don't believe the hype!

[Dave Homewood]

Do the SAS wear cameras like the infantry does? That would solve all th arguments.

[obiwan27]

Dec 30, 2010 19:29:23 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

And how is it he is continually the one quoted by the media when anything to do with Defence matters comes up. Don't the other parties have Defence spokespeople? There are some priorities way out of whack here. Especially as no-one has ever actually voted Locke into Parliament.

I would argue that the reason Locke gets so much media attention is twofold; one, he is always guaranteed to have a conflicting view in defence and foreign affairs matters to government policy (any government be it National-led or Labour led) and controversial headlines sell more papers and result in more website hits eh? Secondly his mother was a well known feminist, children's author, peace campaigner etc etc so he gets coverage more to his noteriety than actual accomplishments in life.

www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Whi071Kota-t1-g1-d13.html

If you read her Biographical entry above, you'll see that she was a woman of many accomplishments. You might also note that she and her second husband were members of the NZ Communist Party but resigned in 1956.

If I remember rightly this was in response to the Soviet Union's invasion of Hungary and perhaps reflects that unlike her son, Mrs Locke was a woman of principle and not a complete slave to ideology.

[corsair67]

If I remember rightly this was in response to the Soviet Union's invasion of Hungary and perhaps reflects that unlike her son, Mrs Locke was a woman of principle and not a complete slave to ideology.

Funny, though, how she manged to overlook the purges, the show trials, the forced relocation of people to Siberia, the great famine of the 1930s, the invasions of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia & Finland, imprisonment and deaths of millions of people in Gulags, and all the other horrors of Stalin and his communist cronies up until they invaded Hungary in 1956!

After growing up in that household, is it any wonder her son is such an idiot?

[Dave Homewood]

Thankfully I had never heard of her. But I seem to recall reading that a certain Helen Clark and Tama Iti were both members of the Communist Party back in the 1970's, so they were definately not choosy about their membership.

[30sqnatc]

Dec 31, 2010 16:28:42 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Thankfully I had never heard of her. But I seem to recall reading that a certain Helen Clark and Tama Iti were both members of the Communist Party back in the 1970's, so they were definately not choosy about their membership.

Tama Iti was but in the 1970s our former great PM was already in the Labour Party so I question the accuracy of your memory about her in NY ;D

[obiwan27]

Dec 31, 2010 14:24:01 GMT 12 corsair67 said:

If I remember rightly this was in response to the Soviet Union's invasion of Hungary and perhaps reflects that unlike her son, Mrs Locke was a woman of principle and not a complete slave to ideology.

Funny, though, how she manged to overlook the purges, the show trials, the forced relocation of people to Siberia, the great famine of the 1930s, the invasions of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia & Finland, imprisonment and deaths of millions of people in Gulags, and all the other horrors of Stalin and his communist cronies up until they invaded Hungary in 1956!

Too right Corsair. I took it easy on the old lady. She did take considerable time to come around to the considerable 'problems' with Communism as it played out in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, unlike her son. He was the main target of my comments.
A slave to ideology and one track thinking he most certainly is.

After growing up in that household, is it any wonder her son is such an idiot?

[kiwithrottlejockey]

Oooooooooh....there's rather a lot of “POLITICS” in this thread.


I'm telling on you lot! ;D

[oggie2620]

Its above my pay band but I gather the higher the tree you go up in the military the more like a political game of chess it is (and thats just here I am sure its the same over there!).

[Dave Homewood]

Jan 1, 2011 0:07:23 GMT 12 kiwithrottlejockey said:

Oooooooooh....there's rather a lot of “POLITICS” in this thread.


I'm telling on you lot! ;D

Bruce, here is the Forum Rule on this matter:

Rule 11 Added 21 June 2010 - Just to clarify what has been written as policy elsewhere on the forum since before these rules were created, it was decided by a majority of members via a poll, that we should not allow the discussion of general politics here on the forum. The only acceptable exceptions of political discussion is when the topic is related to aviation or the Armed Forces, which is within the scope of the forum's interests

As Locke considers himself a "Defence Spokesman", discussing his warped views is not outside of the forum rules in my opinion as a moderator.

[obiwan27]

Thanks for the clarification Dave, always wary of pushing the boundaries too much. Hope we didn't stray too far off the original topic. Noticeable though that whenever NZ is likely to be involved in a 'real' military deployment (sorry peacekeeping folk) he is always the voice against it. Not surprising when the Greens are pretty much the anti-military party is it?
I'll stop there as any further will be broaching the rules I feel.

[luke6745]

www.stuff.co.nz/national/4542807/SAS-confirms-Afghan-gunfight

SAS confirms Afghan gunfight
JOHN HARTEVELT

Kiwi SAS soldiers returned fire, killing two Afghan security guards in an Christmas Eve attack while they were on a mission to prevent a rocket attack on the US embassy in Kabul.

A NATO-led investigation by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in to the firefight was today released by the defence force.

In the incident, a joint New Zealand and Afghan operation was sent at short notice by ISAF leadership to act on intelligence about an imminent rocket or explosives attack on the US Embassy in Kabul.

"The video imagery has captured the heat plumes from weapons as they are fired," Lieutenant General Jerry Mateparae said today.

"It clearly shows the New Zealanders came under fire from an Afghan 'security guard' and that the New Zealanders only returned fire in self defence because they were at risk of death or serious injury. The guard was wounded during the exchange of fire and then retreated into a nearby building."

Lt Gen Mateparae said the video went on to show two further Afghan security guards armed with AK 47 weapons running into a compound and taking up firing positions metres away from the Kiwi soldiers.

"The New Zealand forces yelled a command for the Afghans to stop. Because they were in immediate danger they then returned fire at the two Afghan security guards, which resulted in their deaths. The video imagery shows what appears to be a heat plume coming from one of the security guards weapons, indicating that at least one of them opened fire at close range on the New Zealanders before they returned the fire."

The Kiwi soldiers cleared nearby buildings after the exchange and a NZSAS medical officer gave medical treatment to the wounded Afghans. The weapons of both the dead Afghan guards were found to be loaded with a round chambered in each weapon, which Lt Gen Mateparae said showed they were ready to open fire on the Kiwis.

The Kiwi soldiers had also found items consistent with the intelligence that had suggested an imminent attack on the US embassy.

Lt Gen Mateparae said the ISAF report had cleared the New Zealand soldiers of any wrong-doing.

While there had been varying accounts of the incident, the video footage showed the Kiwis were attacked first in the incident.

The video footage would not be released, but Lt Gen Mateparae said he had seen it and agreed with the ISAF conclusions. The Kiwi soldiers had carried out the operation appropriately, he said.

"Having reviewed the circumstances I am satisfied that members of the NZSAS responded with discipline, professionalism and courage to the threats they faced," he said.