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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 1, 2006 11:16:23 GMT 12
Apart from Jack Cleland who flew P-51D B6-B 'Isabel III' in the USAAF, (as portrayed for a time by Sir Tim's Mustang, and by the Mustang currently at RAF Cosford too), did any other RNZAF pilots or New Zealanders in other services fly the P-51D Mustang in WWII?
Either with the RAF, the USAAF, the RAAF, anything really. I have a 1/24th scale Airfix kitset and I reckon a Kiwi scheme would be great, but rather than a postwar Territorial scheme, which I've done in 1/48th. I'd like a wartime colour scheme.
Isabel III is a great colour scheme and is temptng me, but I wondered does anyone have alternatives to consider? Cheers.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 5, 2006 23:17:34 GMT 12
OK, no-one has answered this post but I have been researching away and found some references to RNZAF pilots flying Mustangs in WWII.
Apparently Jack Cleland was the only RNZAF pilot known to have flown a USAAF Mustang operationally according to the NZFPM site.
But with the RAF, many New Zealanders appear to have flown the type in operational roles, including a load who were killed in them sadly.
The thing is, most references I have found I have cross referennced to squadron history and found they were flying the Mustang III (P-51B/C) rather than the Mustang IV (P-51D), so my options are slim. Some I have not determined which model of Mustang they flew yet.
Anyway, for anyone interested here are my Kiwi wartime Mustang pilots so far, sourced from the NZFPM site, and this first lot of quotes from the three books 'New Zealanders in the Royal Air Force' by H.L. Thompson.
Flight Lieutenant R. H. Newton. Newton was one of the most skilful and experienced pilots engaged in ground attack operations; he had now completed two tours of operations with his No. 112 Squadron, the first on Kittyhawks and the second on Mustangs.
Type unknown yet
Flight Lieutenant R. G. Kleinmeyer, flight commander in No. 129 Mustang Squadron , DFC; born Toowoomba, Australia, 27 Sep 1917;surveyor's assistant; joined RNZAF Jan 1941.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
New Zealanders also played their part in the various subsidiary tasks undertaken by Fighter Command. They were particularly prominent in the fighter reconnaissance field where Group Captain P. L. Donkin, who had long experience in this work - he had served with Army Co-operation Command during the early years of the war – now commanded a Mustang wing
Type unknown yet
Wing Commander R. J. C. Grant, DFC and bar, DFM; born Woodville, 3 Jun 1914;metal spinner; joined RNZAF Nov 1939; commanded No. 485 (NZ) Sqdn, 1942–43;No. 65 Sqdn, 1943–44; No. 122 Wing, 1944; killed on air operations, 28 Feb 1944. Grant was posted to Canada for a short period and then returned to England as leader of a Mustang wing. A few months later he was killed while setting off on a mission across the Channel. It is recorded that, shortly after the take-off, Grant's engine cut out in cloud. He ordered the wing to carry on while he turned back in an effort to make base. He broke cloud at about 1000 feet and it is surmised that oil covered his hood and goggles, for he used his parachute which opened just as he struck the ground
b]Type unknown yet[/b]
New Zealand fighter pilots who held senior posts under Coningham at this time were Group Captain P. G. Jameson, in command of a mobile wing of Mustang fighters
b]Type unknown yet[/b]
The following are from the role of honour on the NZFPM site
ABBOTT, Wt Off William Gibbs], NZ424401, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot 19 Sqn, RAF - 9 Sep 1944 (Age 22); Netherlands.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
ASHWORTH, Fg Off Corran Perry, NZ413367, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
65 Sqn, RAF - 3 Aug 1944 (Age 22); Runnymede Memorial.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
Of interest he was Johnnie Houlton's best mate
BARRETT, Flt Lt Richard, NZ391324, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
65 Sqn, RAF - 17 May 1944 (Age 24); Denmark.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
CHRISTENSEN, Flt Lt Arnold George, NZ413380, mid, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
26 Sqn, RAF - 29 Mar 1944 (Age 21); Poland.
Type unknown yet
COLLYNS, Flt Lt Basil Gordon, NZ391342, DFC (bbc), RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
19 Sqn, RAF - 20 Aug 1944 (Age 31); France.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
CUNNINGHAM, Fg Off Godfrey Melville, NZ414260, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
2 Sqn, RAF - 29 Nov 1942 (Age 25); Runnymede Memorial
Type unknown yet
DRYDEN, Flt Lt Alfred Ernest, NZ413549, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
249 Sqn, RAF - 22 Sep 1944 (Age 25); Malta Memorial
Type unknown yet
GORE, Flt Lt Hugh, 41577, RAF - Mustang Pilot
613 Sqn, RAF - 18 Jul 1943 (Age 28); Runnymede Memorial
Type unknown yet
GRANT, Wg Cdr Reginald Joseph Cowan, NZ391352, DFC* DFM, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
65 Sqn, RAF - 28 Feb 1944 (Age 29); England.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
HAWKINS, Flt Lt William Tinsley, NZ41986, DFC, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
613 Sqn, RAF - 27 Sep 1943 (Age 25); Runnymede Memorial
Type unknown yet
JOYCE, Sqn Ldr Ernest Leslie, NZ40770, DFM, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
122 Sqn, RAF - 18 Jun 1944 (Age 24); France.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
MacDONALD, Wg Cdr Graeme Eaton, 32159, RAF - Mustang Pilot
4 Sqn, RAF - 28 Apr 1943 (Age 32); Netherlands
Type unknown yet
NATTA, Plt Off Basil Matthew Cameron, NZ422308, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
19 Sqn, RAF - 4 May 1945 (Age 22); Runnymede Memorial
Mustang IV (P-51D/K)
STRACHAN, Sqn Ldr Ian Douglas Stuart, 40326, RAF - Mustang Pilot
65 Sqn, RAF - 29 Jan 1945 (Age 27); Runnymede Memorial.
Mustang III (P-51B/C)
TASKER, Fg Off Bernard Cyril, NZ412278, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
2 Sqn, RAF - 16 Jun 1944 (Age 30); France
Type unknown yet
WATSON, Fg Off William Scott, NZ412769, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
63 Sqn, RAF - 18 Feb 1943 (Age 25); Runnymede Memorial
Type unknown yet
The aircraft of Patrick Jameson or Reg Grant certainly interest me as both were well known figures in the RNZAF. Does anyone know if Jameson's aircraft was a Mustang III or a IV? I might someday make a III in Reg Grant's colours, or perhaps in Corrin Ashworth's colours to sit alongside my model of Johnnie Houlton's Mk Vb Spitfire.
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fb6
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 96
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Post by fb6 on Aug 6, 2006 15:42:36 GMT 12
That sounds a real worthy task Dave...I had heard of W/C Reg Grant, there was a commemoration for him a year or two back over in the UK that was in the News and he's mentioned in Gerald Morris's book, 'Spitfire- the NZ Story' as being with 485....I could be wrong but he may have flown the earlier variant Mustang, not the 'D'...
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Post by Luther Moore on Jan 31, 2012 23:01:46 GMT 12
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Post by angelsonefive on Feb 1, 2012 7:54:19 GMT 12
Here is another name to be added to the list of NZ Mustang pilots.
S/L Derrick (Gerry) Westenra, great-uncle to Hayley.
Gerry Westenra took command of No.65 Squadron, RAF in March 1944 when the squadron was operating Mustang IIIs.
65 Squadron operated Mustangs until converting to Spitfires in May '45, so I imagine that in the course of time Gerry Westenra got to fly Mustang IVs (P-51D) as well.
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Post by shamus on Feb 1, 2012 8:13:56 GMT 12
Captain P.L.Donkin. Possibly the father of Conrad Donkin who I new many years ago. He had the BMC agency in Thames. I believe he still resides there.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 1, 2012 9:13:19 GMT 12
Captain? Was he Navy or Army? Or USAAF?
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Post by nuuumannn on Feb 1, 2012 14:23:24 GMT 12
Interesting information Dave. I found this side view of Westenra's Mustang III in a book I have.  The caption for the illustration reads: 'Westenra scored 2 and a half Mustang vistories out of a final tally of 8 and 3 shared. Together with 19 Sqn, 65 were among the RAF's most successful Mk. III operators, taking advantage of the type's long range to mount sweeps and escorts to Scandinavia, often accompanying Coastal Command aircraft. Mustangs started to have their camouflage removed following an order dated 8 March 1945. By VE Day most Mustangs remained camouflaged, however, although a significant number of Mk.IVs [P-51D] were in natural metal finish.' This in the text: 'RAF Mustang Mk.IIIs offered able support [after Overlord], primarily in the ground attack capacity, with the sortie rate demanded in the period immediately after the troops slogged their way ashore keeping the pilots very busy. On 8 June near Gace, No.65 Sqn was busy bombing German vehicles when four Fw 190s were spotted. Led by their OC, Kiwi Sqn Ldr Westenra, No.65's pilots gave chase and succeeded in shooting down two of the enemy machines, while the pilot of the third fighter baled out.' The Multirole P-51 Mustang; text by Jerry Scutts, Osprey Publishing, Del Prado imprint |
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Post by angelsonefive on Feb 2, 2012 12:10:49 GMT 12
Captain P.L.Donkin. Possibly the father of Conrad Donkin who I new many years ago. He had the BMC agency in Thames. I believe he still resides there. This will be Group-Captain Peter Langloh Donkin 33053 ( 1913-2000). Attained Air Commodore. Almost certainly flew the early model Mustangs but I cannot be sure about the Mark IV. His full bio. here on raf.org : www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Donkin.htm |
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Post by Damon on Feb 2, 2012 12:36:25 GMT 12
I think Max Collet flew the P-51 during the war. Perhaps Jack Stafford also. Doug Grieg went to the USA to be trained on the P-51 prior to the RNZAF getting them in 1945 , to replace the F4U.
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Post by kb on Feb 2, 2012 15:05:02 GMT 12
Peter Donkin WAS low level RAF WW2 fighter reconnaissance. He commanded 35 Wing for much of it's existence. I haven't come across much about those operations except for an excellent book "Great Interruption" by Laurence Irving a well known artist and designer for the theatre. More importantly from our point of view he was a RNAS pilot in WW1 and had a very interesting WW2 including a long time with 35 Wing as their intelligence officer. His book is dedicated to Pete Donkin and one other officer.
As a matter of interest Donkin was shot down over the channel and was given up for lost and replaced as the C.O. of 35 Wing but turned up after 6 days afloat and resumed his command.
I am sure that he only flew Allison engined Mustangs which were unsurpassed for low level work. There is always the implication that the Mustang was hopeless until it received the Merlin. Not so, it was probably the best around at low level. I think Donkin may have flown Typhoons for a short time, he was certainly current in them when he was promoted to Air Commodore.
Thanks for the profile of Derrick Westenra's Mustang nuuumannn.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 2, 2012 15:40:23 GMT 12
Since I started this thread I have interviewed an RAF Army Co-op pilot, George Gould DFC, who also flew early model Mustangs (and Tomahawks) during his Army Co-op training in the UK before going operational on Hurricanes and then Spitfires. I'm sure other kiwis will have flown the Mustang in the Army Co-op role too, but did those squadrons ever use the Mustang IVI wonder? Or just the Mustang III?
Damon, I'd like to know more about Max Collett and Doug Greig flying the Mustangs. No doubt Doug's would have been P-51D's to prepare him for our ones that were planned to go to Borneo. I know my late friend Eric Ford was sent to Australia as an NCO in charge of a group of Fitters and Riggers, etc, who did a course there in mid-1945 on servicing the Mustangs, with the RAAF. The war ended while they were there.
I do not recall Jack Stafford mentioning the Mustang at all when I interviewed hime. He was on Hurricanes, Typhoons and Tempests.
Great stuff, keep the information flowing.
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Post by kiwichappers on Jul 26, 2012 22:32:55 GMT 12
I think we can add Warren Schrader to this list although as yet I have no definite aircraft.
After his service with 616 he was given command of a three-squadron wing of Mustangs based at Hornchurch, outside London, before a stint at the Central Flying School.
Correspondence with his son Neil confirms there are Mustangs [probably Mk.IVs] in his log book from this time.
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Post by Andy Wright on Jul 27, 2012 11:16:09 GMT 12
Dave, I think we emailed about this a while ago. I suggested NZ-born (moved to Oz when 6)Australian ace Andrew 'Nicky' Barr OBE, MC, DFC* as his biography, Nicky Barr - An Australian Air Ace, by son-in-law Peter Dornan, mentions he flew at least one target-marking op in a Mustang over Italy (or that region) upon finally escaping POW camp in 1944. He was captured in mid-1942, not the first time he shot down, while commanding No. 3 Sqn RAAF. He was a serial escaper and spent some time with partisans etc hence his MC.
I'll endeavour to get further detail about the Mustang op/s.
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Post by davidd on Jul 28, 2012 11:28:21 GMT 12
Just in case anyone was wondering why D F Westenra was known as "Gerry", his second given name was "Fitzgerald".
David D
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Post by colford on Aug 1, 2012 0:16:11 GMT 12
Dave,
Only came across this thread recently.
Group Captain Peter Langloh Donkin DSO. Flew Lysander, Blenheim, Tomahawk, N.A. Mustang Mk.I, Mk.IA and possibly Mk.II. OC 35 (Recce) Wing from when formed until just after D-Day. Late in life moved out to Australia to live with his daughter, where he passed away around 2000.
CHRISTENSEN, Flt Lt Arnold George, NZ413380, mid, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
26 Sqn, RAF - 29 Mar 1944 (Age 21); Poland.
CUNNINGHAM, Fg Off Godfrey Melville, NZ414260, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
2 Sqn, RAF - 29 Nov 1942 (Age 25); Runnymede Memorial
N.A. Mustang Mk.I
DRYDEN, Flt Lt Alfred Ernest, NZ413549, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
249 Sqn, RAF - 22 Sep 1944 (Age 25); Malta Memorial
N.A. Mustang Mk.III
GORE, Flt Lt Hugh, 41577, RAF - Mustang Pilot
613 Sqn, RAF - 18 Jul 1943 (Age 28); Runnymede Memorial
N.A. Mustang Mk.I
HAWKINS, Flt Lt William Tinsley, NZ41986, DFC, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
613 Sqn, RAF - 27 Sep 1943 (Age 25); Runnymede Memorial
N.A. Mustang Mk.I
F/L W T Hawkins DFC RNZAF was conducting a weather reconnaissance in N.A. Mustang Mk.I AP254. During the sortie he spotted enemy E-Boats off Terschelling and commenced an attack. During the attack his aircraft was in turn intercepted by enemy aircraft and shot down into the sea.
MacDONALD, Wg Cdr Graeme Eaton, 32159, RAF - Mustang Pilot
4 Sqn, RAF - 28 Apr 1943 (Age 32); Netherlands
N.A. Mustang Mk.I
TASKER, Fg Off Bernard Cyril, NZ412278, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
2 Sqn, RAF - 16 Jun 1944 (Age 30); France
N.A. Mustang Mk.IA or Mk.II
WATSON, Fg Off William Scott, NZ412769, RNZAF - Mustang Pilot
63 Sqn, RAF - 18 Feb 1943 (Age 25); Runnymede Memorial
N.A. Mustang Mk.I
There were quite a few RNZAF pilots who flew the Allison engined Mustangs, the Mk.I, Mk.IA and Mk.II with what were originally Army Co-operation Command Squadrons, then moved to Fighter Command, before becoming part of 2TAF. Primary role was low level fighter reconnaissance, tactical reconnaissance. These units did not use the later Merlin engined variants of the Mustang, stayed with the earlier Allison engined variants through until after VE-Day, sometimes replaced or supplemented from early 1945 onwards by Spitfire FR.XIVEs. The Allison Mustangs were ideally suited for low level operations below 5,000 ft, with their Allison engines specially modified for maximum performance down low.
Regards,
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 1, 2012 9:50:20 GMT 12
Thanks everyone for the latest info.
It seems a good number of kiwis flew the Mustang during WWII but very few kiwis flew the P-51D , which is the model of the aircraft I was specifically interested in.
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Post by Andy Wright on Jan 9, 2014 14:24:12 GMT 12
Dave, I've just been doing some Wiki reading about Kiwi aces (it all started when I read of 'Snowy' Bonham, his V1 successes and previous Buffalo flying - and DFC - according to Osprey's new V1 Flying Bomb Aces). Anyway, somehow I ended up back at this thread and then remembered reading about Reg Grant being lost in a Mustang on the Wiki listing. As suggested above by fb6, I would lean towards him flying the Mustang Mk III due to being lost at the end of February 1944. It just seems a bit early for widespread Mustang Mk IV use in the RAF to me. I wonder if Errol's FYT mentions a serial number? He is referenced in Osprey's RAF Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces by Andrew Thomas who, incidentally, also wrote the V1 title. I'm not an avid reader of the series but, by golly, they're full of information that leads to other things! Doesn't help your initial query of course but thought I'd add it and, perhaps, give what is an interesting thread a bit of a bump. A ha, Mustang III FX996 according to an extract from FYT here (the breadth of detail in the FYT volumes never ceases to amaze me): www.aviationmuseum.co.uk/grant.htmNice little page, incidentally. |
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Post by praxis on Jan 9, 2014 21:29:52 GMT 12
Just came across this thread. I recall Jack Stafford telling me once that he flew a Mustang from the Continent back to RAF Thorney Island - must have been late 1944 or early 1945. I inferred this was the only time he flew a Mustang. As far as I know Max Collett never flew a Mustang but I will ask him to verify this is correct.
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Post by fwx on Apr 24, 2018 10:42:42 GMT 12
From my uncle's 1945 diary, probably another Kiwi Mustang pilot who flew bomber escort op's in 1945:
"N.Z. Club in Charing Cross Rd with Jack & Nick. Nick flies Mustangs & I find that he has escorted us on a few targets (more celebrating required)."
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