RNZAF P-51D pilots in WWII

[Dave Homewood]

Dragging up this old but valuable thread, I have been asked if any Kiwi pilots flew the Mustang III (P-51B/C) in the RAF, or P-51B/C with the USAAF, during WWII, in aircraft that had bare metal or partially bare metal colour schemes?

He's interested in any kiwi that flew these highback Mustangs that were not in the usual RAF grey/green camo colours.

I am finding this one quite a challenge. Has anyone got any suggestions?

[f1xena]

Hi Dave, hope it’s ok to revive this thread as I have a bit more info on Jack Cleland (my great-uncle) I recently obtained a pdf copy of his logbook courtesy of the Research team at the RNZAF Museum)
His time with the Americans wasn’t his first experience with Mustangs. He flew early Allison engined Mustang Is on a Fighter Recco Course at 41 OTU Hawarden in October 1943. The serials were AG-493, 346, 523, 508, 484, 425, 401, 365 and 379. My own bit of research shows some of these were the earliest Mustangs that were operated by the RAF. I’m guessing they were all painted in the standard grey and green scheme of the time, although when they arrived they were green/dark earth. This experience may be why he was chosen for the US secondment. He also had a bit of Hurricane time, as well as Spitfire Vb, VI and VII with 616 Squadron. Interestingly, if he hadn’t been seconded to the 363rd, he would have got to fly the first Meteors when they arrived at 616 just a week or so later,
I’m planning 1/72 builds of as many of the aircraft in his logbook as I can, as well as a 1/48 Isabel III. Secretly hoping Richard and the team at Kotare may eventually do a MkVII Isabel II. Dreams are free!
Cheers
Tania

[Dave Homewood]

Welcome to the Forum Tania, and we never have any problem with old threads popping up again here, especially when it is great information like this being added. Really interesting info, thank you. I'd love a copy of that pdf to have a browse through please, if possible.
[e-mail]

[colford]

North American NA-73 Mustang Mk I AG346 was the second production Mustang Mk I and the first received in the UK by the RAF. It had served briefly with No.s 225, 63 and 16 Squadrons RAF - being one of the earliest deliveries in the UK it was issued to the Squadrons without all the required operational modifications required so it could be used by those Squadrons as they worked up on the Mustang from other types. There were delays in getting all the components required to complete the modifications to bring aircraft up to the fully modified state, so AG346 had to wait a while until it was its turn to be sent to a Maintenance Unit to get the modifications done. When they were done, it would have also been repainted into the Day Fighter Scheme (Grey/Green) with the national markings applicable at that time if it had not already been done at one of the original three units. Whilst with 41 OTU is would have had a side number - two digits - often the last two of the serial, and a single letter representing the flight in the OTU it was in eg 46-C painted in 24 inch high yellow letters.

Any indication from the log book entries which course number he was on at 41OTU or exact start and finish dates of the course he was on?

Regards,

[f1xena]

Great information thanks!
He was on Course 84 at Hawarden, from 2-30 October 1943 and finished with 27 hours Mustang time plus a few Harvard hours and a single hour in a Hurricane.
The Mustangs were logged only by their AG serial numbers so no other marking information. Would these have been the aircraft with the nose mounted guns? My research seemed to indicate so. Aa it was a reconnaissance course, would they have had the rear fuselage oblique camera hatch too?
Thanks for the info.
Regards
Tania

[colford]

No.84 (Fighter Officers) Course at 41 OTU was a five week course for selected pilots with existing operational experience on fighter aircraft and intended to give them the specialised training for the conduct of low level tactical reconnaissance operations flying. It was a greatly condensed course from the usual full 10 to 12 week course (they had a 'summer' course of 10 weeks with the expectation of better weather not impacting the flying training schedule and a 12 week 'winter' course with expected delays to flying due to bad weather). The long course was intended for pilots newly arrived from Service Flying Training and with no previous operational experience. There was also a short 4-5 week 'refresher' course for experienced Tac/R pilots who were returning to operational flying after an extended period 'on rest' in a staff or instructing duty - often if the numbers for a full 'refresher' course was insufficient they would tag them onto one of the Fighter Officers courses.

The short 4-5 week course for experienced fighter pilots concentrated on learning to fly the Allison engine Mustang at low level; navigate accurately to pin points at low level; the procedures used in planning and completing Tac/R operations; and operation of the recoonnaissance camera equipment fitted. This last would focus on the oblique F24 camera fitted immediately behind the cockpit in the rear quarter window position and the various types of photography that could be obtained with that camera. They would also give a basic introduction to vertical photography as some of the Mustangs in the Tac/R squadrons were equipped with Mustangs that also had a vertical camera in the rear fuselage.

41OTU was primarily at Hawarden, but they also had a satellite field at Poulten where some of the basic flying on the longer courses was conducted and a detachment at Andover where courses did Artillery reconnaissance and artillery direction training on the Larkhill ranges with Army artillery units and in an early training simulator. The primary training aircraft with 41 OTU at the time was a number of Harvards - similarity in the control layout and operation of the various systems on the aircraft to the Mustang given their NAA lineage. They had a number of Mustang Mk I aircraft in various states of modification to meet the requirements of the different flights within the unit and various phases of training. So not all the Mustangs were for example fitted with full armament in the low level flying and navigation sections, whilst the aircraft used in the air to air and air to ground gunnery practice flight were. There was a flight specifically for the reconnaissance photography phase with the Mustangs fitted with the reconnaissance camera(s) and controls. The Hurricanes at that stage were starting to be introduced in greater numbers to free up Mustangs to be released for operational use. The Hurricanes were also flown more by pilots who were intended to be sent overseas in the Tac/R role, where most of the Tac/R Squadrons in the MTO and CBI theatres were using Hurricanes.

The Mustangs at 41 OTU were primarily the Allison engine Mustang Mk I being of both the NA-73 first production batch which had the AG serials and also a smaller number of NA-83 second production batch aircraft with AL, AM and AP series serials. The Mustang Mk I was armed with two 0.50in Browning HMGs mounted low in the nose and synchronised to fire through the propellor, and one 0.50in Browing HMG and two 0.300in Browning MGs in each wing. As noted earlier in my post, not all the Mustang Mk I at 41 OTU would have had the full armament fitted due to their training role not requiring it.

Attendance at the short Fighter Officers course was an indication the pilot was being considered for a posting to one of the Tac/R Squadrons in the future. Also it was a way to expose fighter pilots to the Mustang with the impending arrival in early 1944 of the first of the Merlin engine fighter versions of the Mustang, the Mustang Mk III - similar to the USAAF P-51B/C. The flip side of this training for fighter pilots, was there was an expectation with the invasion of Europe in 1944 that the losses in the low level tactical reconnaissance squadrons during the invasion and given their role, might be high to very high. Therefore having a number of experienced fighter pilots, pre-trained in the role who could be posted in as replacements particularly in leadership roles, rather than trained non-experienced more junior pilots, was seen as beneficial.

Regards,

[ErrolC]

Loving the detail on this thread, thanks all.

[f1xena]

Colin, that is fantastic information. Thanks so much. Jacks logbook entries confirm everything you said (the dates I gave were the first and last flights, although there were 2 more Hurricane flights in early November (a “weather test” and “artillery reconnaissance”) and the final sign-off entry is dated 4th December. Now I just have to work out how to post photos and I can upload the appropriate logbook pages. 
Cheers
Tania

[Dave Homewood]

If you get a Flickr account and host the photos on it, you can link them to here:

See here for how to do that.
rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/27214/post-photos-forum-using-flickr

if that proves too hard, send me the photos Tania, and I can slot them in for you.

[colford]

Tania,

The artillery reconnaissance at the end of the course would have been at Larkhill, flying out of the 41OTU detachment under F/L Bert Bonniface at Andover at that time. It would involve a number of days in the classroom being taught how the direction of artillery is conducted, giving directions to artillery in terms of grid references and then adjusting the fire of the artillery to hit the designated target. That part of the course would usually include at least one day out on the range with an Army artillery battery watching them at work and watching other pilots giving direction, listening in to their radio calls.


They had a simulator at Larkhill, very basic, where the pilot would be sitting in a desk with a simulated radio set up, with a map of the 'terrain' they would be conducting their artillery shoot over - the terrain being a large scale model on a hessian material basewith various features (hills, buildings, roads, bridges, etc) the pilot would use as points of reference. They would pass their directions to one of the instructing staff "via the radio" who would plot where the directions given would likely cause the artillery fire to land. They then passed that to another instructor sitting under the model on a wheeled chair, who taking a large draw on his lit cigarette, would eject a stream of cigarette smoke up at the point the artillery fire should have fallen. The process would continue until the student got their "shells on target" and the instructor would give a particularly big puff of smoke up through the model at the appropriate point. Once they had mastered the process in the simulator, they would put it to practical use directing a battery of guns out on the range at Larkhill. (Later in the war they refined the production of the smoke to not require an instructor who was a smoker - an apparatus was devised similar to that used to create toy model train smoke that was used.)

On the short course, it might only be one or two flights, on the full course for novices it could be up to a dozen or more. Given the type of flying for that part of the course, it didn't neccessarily require using the Mustang, so the Hurricane was increasingly substituted for that part of the course from the 2nd half of 1943.

Regards,