Gareth
Flight Sergeant
Posts: 27
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Post by Gareth on Jul 13, 2011 0:07:46 GMT 12
Help Please.
Trying to establish what prewar (ww2) non-pilot aircrew trades existed in the NZPAF, NZAF and RNZAF. When and how the trade was established and the brevet or badge worn to distinguish them. Also very interested to see any photos of prewar aircrew. Especially showing brevet, badges, insignia and uniform.
I assume there were Observers and Airgunners. Were these groundcrew trained to fly was required or what?
Cheers Gareth
(Also do NZ have awarded the brassed winged bullet as with the RAF)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 13, 2011 1:37:22 GMT 12
Errol will correct me if I'm wrong here I'm sure, but as far as I am aware there was never any aircrew trade other than pilot in the NZPAF. There were not that many pilots for that matter. When they required an air gunner for the Bristol Fighters, etc, I believe they took along other pilots or members of the groundcrew, particularly armourers. They probably never fired the guns much if at all.
The early days of the RNZAF were not much different. And I do not think the RNZAF had wireless sets till probably the advent of the Vildebeests arriving in 1935 or maybe the Oxfords a bit later. So I'm not sure if they had any aircrew Wireless Ops till then. I think communication was largely done by Aldis lamp with Morse Code.
The RNZAF started a real bid to modernise in 1937 and through 1938-39. A lot of people were recruited at this time but I think largely they were for groundcrew positions to tend to the 250 aircraft the Government had ordered and to man the new stations they were building.
The first ever formal Air Gunner course was in April-June 1939 and the course members were not from the RNZAF, they were from the Territorial Air Force. Many of these men were meant to become fully fledged Observers (encompassing the trades of Air Gunner, Bomb Aimer, Navigator and Wireless Op). Many of them did do wireless training and they studied navigation and the likes but because the war intervened a lot of them were spread all around, some to the Pacific, UK, etc, and their finishing course that had been planned never happened. So they never got their O-wing, just had to make do with WAG - however they were still recodnised as Navigators and Bomb Airmers in crews. I have talked to a number of these guys of that era and it was interesting times indeed.
One of my mates, Arthur Hoffman, was one of the Wellington (Territorial) Squadron members. He flew as a Wireless Op, an Air Gunner, a Navigator-Bomber Aimer, a Radar Op, and a Photographer in the Pacific in Hudsons,but he only ever got the WAG brevet at that time even though he completed his Nav course by correspondence. He was then sent to Britain and retrained as a pilot! So he did all of the aircrew trades. Not bad, it was all down to the excellent training he got in the TAF in 1938-39.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 14, 2011 4:24:44 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 14, 2011 4:52:21 GMT 12
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Post by errolmartyn on Jul 14, 2011 11:56:22 GMT 12
Noted with interest is they still had a Bristol Fighter at Wigram for ground training in May 1937! I wonder when it finally left there/was destroyed. New Zealand Bristol Fighter fates: H1557 destroyed in fatal crash 17 Mar 26 (Capt F. J. Horrell, mid, NZAF [Territorial], killed; Lt P. A. Turner, NZAF [Territorial] ser inj; Mr L. M. Reid, passenger, DoI en route hospital) H1558 badly damaged in landing accident c.25 Mar 29 reduced to spares 6856 last known flight 5 Mar 35 (I. E. Rawnsley) 6857 last known flight 24 Oct 36 (F. R. Dix) 7120 last known flight 14 Oct 36 (I. E. Rawnsley) 7121 destroyed in fatal crash 25 Feb 36 (Fg Off G. M. Owen, NZAF [Territorial] killed) flew 669.15hrs 7122 last known flight 29 Sep 36 (S. Wallingford) Fates of 6856, 6857, 7120 and 7122 as follows (but which specific aircraft to which not known): 1 aircraft SOC & to Wellington Aero Club (for Dominion School of Aeronautics?) as an instructional airframe c.Nov 36 1 aircraft (believed to be 7122) SOC & flown from Wigram to Palmerston North Technical College for use as an instructional airframe c.late Nov-Dec 36. 2 aircraft withdrawn from service to become instructional airframes in 1936, and believed burnt on the dump at Wigram just prior to or just after the outbreak of war in 1939 Errol |
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Post by shamus on Jul 14, 2011 15:40:05 GMT 12
Dave. Could not have been Vildebeests at that Masterton Paegent as it was held on 3rd March 35 and the first flight of a Vildebeest in NZ did not take place until late May 35.
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Post by Damon on Jul 14, 2011 16:29:27 GMT 12
Does'nt Stuart Tantrum have an ex NZPAF Bristol Fighter? It used to reside in the Omaka museun untill recently.
Damon
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 14, 2011 19:37:36 GMT 12
Thanks for the info there Errol. Just seeing if you were on your toes there Shamus.  It cannot have been Avro 626's either as they were not in the country till September 1935. Perhaps it was Bristol Fighters? Damon, do you mean the airframe that was in the workshop diorama? I believe that came from the UK, and was swapped with the RAF Museum for a Hudson turret. |
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Post by Damon on Jul 14, 2011 19:45:23 GMT 12
I stand corrected.I had heard that Stuart has reminants of A Bristol and had thought it was at Omaka.Great thread by the way.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 14, 2011 21:02:24 GMT 12
He had the remnants of an Avro 504K at Omaka, now flying at Masterton and he and his company restored it. It's a real beauty too.
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Gareth
Flight Sergeant
Posts: 27
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Post by Gareth on Jul 16, 2011 15:36:24 GMT 12
Excellent information thanks. Questions answered, cheers
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Post by camtech on Jul 20, 2011 11:31:47 GMT 12
I can add to the Brisfits details from logbook entries.
The aircraft SoC and delivered to Wellington Aero Club was 6857, the delivery flight being 27 November 1936. This aircraft also flew Wigram to Blenheim 29 September 1928 with Southern Cross.
7121 also was involved in a forced landing at Waikanae 7 February 1929
6856 overturned on landing at Wigram January 1929.
Have some other data which needs checking as dates dont tie up.
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Post by errolmartyn on Jul 20, 2011 12:32:37 GMT 12
I can add to the Brisfits details from logbook entries. The aircraft SoC and delivered to Wellington Aero Club was 6857, the delivery flight being 27 November 1936. This aircraft also flew Wigram to Blenheim 29 September 1928 with Southern Cross. 7121 also was involved in a forced landing at Waikanae 7 February 1929 6856 overturned on landing at Wigram January 1929. Have some other data which needs checking as dates dont tie up. Camtech, Thanks for this. Could you please name the pilot who made the Wigram-(via?)-Wellington flight of 6857 on 27 Nov 36? Errol |
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Post by camtech on Jul 21, 2011 16:57:05 GMT 12
I can add to the Brisfits details from logbook entries.
The aircraft SoC and delivered to Wellington Aero Club was 6857, the delivery flight being 27 November 1936. This aircraft also flew Wigram to Blenheim 29 September 1928 with Southern Cross.
Pilot for delivery flt was C C Hunter (his logbook is at RNZAF Museum) No other comment about stops on the way.
7121 also was involved in a forced landing at Waikanae 7 February 1929
6856 overturned on landing at Wigram January 1929.
Have some other data which needs checking as dates dont tie up.
I have some info from Leonard Isitt's logbook. He has recorded entries for 1557 up to 7 April 1929, the last entry being a forced landing on that date. The first entry in his logbook (again at RNZAF Museum) is on 4 November 1925, again for 1557. Entries indicate that he flew 1557 16 and 17 March 1926, and again 5 and 7 April 1929. He also records 1558 through until 10 July 1929. Something not quite right here. Isitt's logbook is full of erratic entries and I actually noted that I abandoned trying to decipher his logbook as it was so inconsistent.
I have some more info that I will dig up and post in the next few days, but if someone can access logbooks for Isitt and Hunter they will be able to recheck the info.
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Post by errolmartyn on Jul 21, 2011 17:25:38 GMT 12
Thanks for Hunter, Camtech.
I've been down the same pathway re Isitt's log book (perhaps he went through a 'creative writing' phase!). He records under 24 Apr 29, for instance:
3hr 10min of flying in 1558 [sic] with the remark 'Woofit'.
But the 'Battle of Woofit' took place on 14 Feb 29, according to the Evening Post of 15 Feb 29
The EP records that Minister of Defence Thomas Wilford 'sat behind Major L. M. Isitt, of the New Zealand Air Force, in a Bristol fighter, and filled the role of observer' during the 'battle'.
Wilford's name, however, does not appear in Isitt's log until his entry for 24 Apr 29.
Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 21, 2011 19:22:44 GMT 12
I had no idea what you were referring to there Errol, so i looked it up and I reckon it's worth posting the two articles from the Evening Post here:
Evening Post, Volume CVII, Issue 30, 5 February 1929, Page 17
BATTLE OF "WOOFIT"
ATTACK ON AUCKLAND
THREE SERVICES TO CO-OPERATE
The battle of "Woofit," which will take place on 14th February, will help to decide tho destinies of Auckland, as far as they are involved in the schemes of. defence. For the first time in New Zealand the Military Forces, the Navy, and the Air Force will co-operate in a practical exercise (says the "New Zealand Herald"). Red Beach, three-quarters of a mile south of Orewa, will be the scene of the landing by the hostile force, which, appropriately, is named the Red. The Blue will be the defenders, who will be represented by a skeleton force of engineers.
It is to be assumed that Red has seized Great Barrier as an advanced base, whence, with the Dunedin, Diomede, Laburnum, Veronica, and Wakakura, the commander dispatches his division, represented by the First Battalion, Auckland Regiment, the Northern Depot Engineers, signal details and Royal Marines, to seize the port of Auckland. His landing is to be made at Red Beach at dawn.
The ships- will not actually sail from Great Barrier. For the purpose of the exercise Auckland is to be asumed to be Port Fitzroy, and the troops will embark from Devonport, and will board the warships, in the stream.
They will carry blank ammunition, water bottles, filled, and one blanket per man—about 600 of them. The Wakakura will tow a barge laden with the material for a pontoon pier 50yds long, which the engineers undertake to erect in an hour. Guns and horses will have to stay out of this fight, but the pier will be strong enough to carry field guns and teams.
Everything will be carried out under service conditions. The ships, with due regard for other craft, will secretly proceed between Tiritiri and the mainland, and will move toward the beach in line abreast. About the six fathoms line they will anchor, and then the troops will transfer to boats which, in strings of two or three, will be towed by motorlaunches or cutters toward the land.
The beach is of a shelving nature, with a good, hard, sandy bottom, and when the towing boats cast off oars will be used until the boats ground, when the infantry, clad in denims for the occasion, will spring out and wade about 1130 yds to the assault. But before there is anything serious in the way of war they will be provided with an excellent breakfast from field cookers thoughtfully placed there by the enemy. A ration of cocoa will have been issued before leaving the ships.
WARSHIPS AND SMOKE SCREEN.
The warships will enter into the spirit of the'affair with "action stations" and "silence," except for the booming of guns firing blanks at the imaginary enemy. The K.N.V.B. will be represented by four launches, which will set up a smoke screen between the ships and the shore, while overhead two army co-operation aeroplanes will doubtless deal with the defending aircraft and make reconnaissance over such dangerous places as Dairy Flat, Red Vale, Silverdale, Lloyd's Hill, Upper Orewa, and the Waiwera Trig. Possibly one machine will take photographs.
Under war conditions the infantry would not be the front line—"and high time, too," as certain veterans might remark. The first ashore would be the tanks. These would sail in on what are known as Bacon boats, barges about 150 yards long, that would be pushed by the-"tow" boats until they touched the ground with their shovel bows. Then the drop-bridges would be put out and the tanks would waddle ashore to give a sporting sort of chance to tho "P. B.I.," which, being interpreted means "poor bloomin' infantry."
AIRCRAFT DEMONSTRATION.
While ashore the troops will be treated to a demonstration of message dropping and picking up by the aircraft. To drop a message a pilot flies over the appointed spot and lets it go with streamers attached. Picking up is more difficult. Two rifles are stuck into the ground by their bayonets some distance ' apart with tho message tied to a string hung from butt to butt. The machine flies low and dropping a hook gathers up tho string. Hooking snapper is supposed to be an easier thing.
Evening Post, Volume CVII, Issue 37, 15 February 1929, Page 10
"WILFORD'S OWN"
ATTACK ON AUCKLAND
MINISTER AS OBSERVER
TAKES PART IN BATTLE
"The battle of Woofit is over. It took place at Auckland yesterday, and all the honours are with the New Zealand Army and Navy. Perhaps it is not to bo wondered at that the offensive was successful, for the attacking party; had on its side the Minister of Defence (the Hon. T. M. Wilford). He sat behind Major L. M. Isitt, of the New Zealand Air Force, in a Bristol fighter, and filled the role of observer.
Greatly impressed with the success of the manoeuvres, and delighted with his experiences in the air, the Minister returned to Wellington this morning.
Some mystery attached to the name of Woofit, which was applied to the battle, but the Minister cleared this up in the course of a conversation with a "Post" representative. It is laid down in Army regulations that every mimic battle must have a name, and it must have no application to the place where it takes place. So the word "Woolit" was coigned; It simply stands for " Wilford's Own Operating For intensive Training."
Mr. Wilford believes in being thorough, and his desire to follow closely the progress of the battle was met by the authorities, arranging that he should act as observer to Major Isitt, whose duty it was to circle overhead in a Bristol Fighter during the progress of the fight and keep in communication with the land and sea forces.
The Minister readily fell in with the arrangement, and soon after breakfast—somewhere in the vicinity of. 7 o'clock— Mr. Wilford took his seat in the fighter, dressed in approved style. During the progress of the fight Mr. Wilford remained up aloft, and although it was necessary to spend a considerable portion of the time above the clouds in order to escape observation from hostile forces below—the Bristol averaged a height of about 3400 feet during the day—he obtained an excellent idea of the battle.
The Minister was not strapped in, but as Major Isitt did not attempt anything in the nature of looptie-loops, he was able to retain his seat with comfort, and he enjoyed every; minute of the flight. The machine flew smoothly all the time, and, as the Minister put it, he had received more bumps in a motor-car or on a train than he received during the whole time he was in the air.
Naturally, objects below appeared very small to the Minister, whose duty it was to observe what was happening. Wharves appeared like matches, and it was almost impossible to distinguish between spectators and troops. While he was in the air, the Minister was in constant communication by telephone with Major Isitt— the-whirr of the engines and the force of the wind prevented normal conversation —and in this way he was able to have places of interest pointed out to him. Mr. Wilford said that it was a perfect day, and it was a delightful feeling to be soaring amongst the clouds. He had no regrets about having made the trip.
At the conclusion of the manoeuvres Mr. Wilford was taken for a spin over Auckland City, and this too he thoroughly enjoyed. In order to give an idea of the speed at which a Bristol fighter travels, it may be mentioned that in the early morning it took Mr. Wilford an hour to motor from Queen street to the aerodrome. Later in the day the trip from Auckland to the aerodrome was made by air, in five minutes. When tho Minister alighted from the machine his place was taken by Mr. Wilford's private secretary (Mr. G. P. Dixon), and he, too, thoroughly, enjoyed a brief trip, during which he had "the pleasure of dropping overboard a letter addressed to himself.
Mr. Wilford's action in visiting Auckland at the time of the manoeuvres and actually taking part in them himself was greatly appreciated by the Defence authorities in the northern city, the evidence of the Minister's close interest in their work being very welcome.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 21, 2011 19:31:54 GMT 12
A few things in those articles strike me as interesting. One is given the name chosen for the exercise and the way iot was chosen, it's a good thing his surname did not start with a P. ;D
The talk of amphibiously landing tanks is extremely interesting. I had no idea that New Zealand had anything near to a tank till well into WWII. What sort of tanks did they have, if any?
The article after the event never actualy reported on whether the amphibous invasuion, the landing of tanks and the erection of the jetty all under the cover of a smoke screen and under fire from the shore was actually a success. Perhaps it was a huge blunder? The paper was much more interested in the story of the Minister getting his jollies on a joyride.
It must have been quite a treat for the locals around there to watch the Navy open fire and see their Army wading ashore after the mandatory stop for a cup of cocoa. This would make a great artwork with all the ships and the aircraft and the scenery.
I wonder if there are photos of this occasion. The first article mentioned an aeroplane might carry out photography.
Also, did the Bristol Fighter genuinely have a telephone for intercom? Or was it a speaking tube? The word telephone sort of conjurs up more of an electrical rather than mechanical device to me.
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Post by shorty on Jul 21, 2011 20:14:22 GMT 12
I was rather taken by the fact that the aircraft did not carry out any looptie-loops!
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Post by camtech on Jul 22, 2011 16:36:41 GMT 12
I would guess the "telephone" was a speaking tube between the cockpits.
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It cannot have been Avro 626's either as they were not in the country till September 1935. Perhaps it was Bristol Fighters?
