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Post by obiwan27 on Jul 25, 2011 16:24:49 GMT 12
www.stuff.co.nz/national/5334833/Inquiry-into-Kiwi-soldiers-death-criticises-trainingThis makes pretty somber reading.  " One of the main findings of the inquiry criticised the lack of training for in-theatre capabilities conducted before each rotation of troops. It found that the training delivered to the 15th rotation did not cover all of the equipment that would be used in sufficient depth. This included vehicle driver training, weapons training on the Mk 19 AGL and its machine gun and coordinating emergency air support. One witness said there was a 30-minute period when support aircraft were above the contact site, but could not establish communications with the patrol." Of course the Defence Force's 'friend' Phil Goff didn't miss a chance to politicise the findings and put the boot in - "Labour leader Phil Goff said the attack, which led to Lt O'Donnell's death, was indicative of the deteriorating situation in Bamiyan. (It's the 'fighting season' dipstick!!) He said it was concerning the inquiry found New Zealand troops had insufficient in-theatre training and the 757 was not configured properly to handle medi-vac evacuations. "I think there were 69 recommendations. My expectation is that we would learn from this tragic experience and that the New Zealand Defence Force would implement those recommendations." The situation in Bamiyan had deteriorated following several IED incidents and an attack on the Kiwi base, Goff said. "We can't assume that Bamiyan is a safe place for New Zealand soldiers to be." Talk about stating the obvious - no shit Bamiyan is not a safe place for NZ soldiers to be - virtually nowhere in Afghanistan is you slimy wanker)  As for the in-theatre training, that's a fair point I guess, but perhaps having our own air combat capability would have enabled our Army guys to be put through a number of scenarios here in NZ prior to going to Afghanistan and therefore being more familiar with dealing with this kind of situation? Is Lieutenant O'Donnell the first casualty of the demise of our air combat capability? Pure speculation on my part - perhaps better informed people than I could care to comment?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 25, 2011 17:31:39 GMT 12
From what I have heard on the news and read this is another situation where a lack of budget and job cuts has lead to under-trained people being expected to perform to the best of their ability without the required support and our soldiers have been wholly let down by the system.
What is sad is NZDF cannot rectify this because they are already far too overstretched for the meagre budget they have, and they are making more cuts to experienced leadership right now. Plus they are having new roles being forced upon them with no extra budget at all to cover this.
It annoys me how Goff seems to be spouting lately that NZ service personnel are only fit to be in a situation where they are totally safe, and that they should not be somewhere that is dangerous as they are not well trained enough. Our soldiers and airmen used to be some of the best in the world, even on tight budgets, due to good solid training, experienced instructors and leaders, and inter-co-operation with other nations. They were recognised as such by other nations and were once hugely respected. Now they must be looked on as the poor relation, even moreso now than back in the days of their Bosnia deployment when operational capabilities were rally shown up to be poor compared with NATO and other Allies.
This downgrade in quality is almost solely the responsibility of Goff's own past Governments' policies to alienate Allies and cut defence ties, reduce budgets and capabilities, and cut experienced roles which has lead to the demise of all this. National has done little to rectify it, which is just as bad. But Goff seems to lay the blame on everyone else but his own government.
The fact that these guys and girls have been sent into a war zone without the necessary skills and support to be there is a national disgrace, and Goff and Burton are largely responsible for this in my opinion.
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Post by luke6745 on Jul 25, 2011 18:52:36 GMT 12
On ONE News, it said "lack of training in calling in air support" or words to that effect.  |
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Post by guest on Jul 25, 2011 19:00:37 GMT 12
On ONE News, it said "lack of training in calling in air support" or words to that effect. Well, well, well! A consequence of not having an ACF, perhaps? |
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jul 25, 2011 19:32:46 GMT 12
Sensored copy of the report here: static2.stuff.co.nz/files/CourtofInquiryreportIt makes sobering reading. Page 58 of the PDF or 481 of the report states "... there was no qualified JTAC on the patrol." JTAC = Forward Air Controller. It also identifies the lack of formal training in ECAS and the resulting communication problems with the ECAS aircraft overhead. We were extremely lucky the whole patrol wasn't wiped out. So when is OSH going to do an investigation into the root causes of this and prosecute the politicians who clearly contributed to this tragedy? As for Goff he needs to read a certain book... the chickens have some home to roost Phil. But I doubt the buck will stop with him or any of his lefty mates responsible for scrapping the ACF. They are too busy blaming everyone else. In fact I don't see anyone taking responsibility for anything here. Very sad... |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 25, 2011 20:19:29 GMT 12
Something that always makes me sad too is the fact that the general public really only gets to hear the names of individuals in the NZDF and read about their heroic deeds nowadays when they have been tragicly killed or maimed. Whether it's an IED bomb attack, a misdploment of a small boat from a naval vessel, a truck crash or an Iroquois hitting a hill, that is seemingly the only way the public sees the human being doing those jobs to protect their freedom, when it has all gone wrong and the consequences have been dire.
I think in many years now the only exception to this I can think of is Cpl Willie Apiata VC. Perhaps this is half the reason why the public is so apathetic and blase' towards the NZDF as they don't seem to be real people doing extraordinary things? The NZDF used to have many well known heroes in their ranks. They still have heroes but they go unrecognised.
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Post by luke6745 on Jul 25, 2011 21:44:54 GMT 12
Just read the report. It basically insinuates that defence is under funded, which of course it is. It disgusts me to see Goff harping on about the NZDF needing proper training but when he was in government, he did nothing to remedy this. It is sad to see.
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Post by Chris F on Jul 26, 2011 10:04:58 GMT 12
Without any doubt Phil Goff is a spineless tosser who has no hope what so ever of even getting close at this years election.....one thing is for sure is he will be dumped as Labour leader after this years election.The man is a puppet on a string!
Anyway that is my venting.
The way we are heading our Defence Force will be nothing more than a Coast Guard Service at best unless someone in power grows some balls and stops talking and takes action.
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Post by luke6745 on Jul 26, 2011 17:27:08 GMT 12
Troops prepared despite report, say NZDF bosses
SHANE COWLISHAW
Defence Force top brass are confident that New Zealand troops are properly prepared for the dangers of Afghanistan despite a report criticising their lack of induction training.
The results of a court of inquiry into the death of Lieutenant Tim O'Donnell, who was killed instantly in an ambush in the northeast of Bamiyan province on August 4 last year, were made public yesterday.
The Feilding-born soldier died when his patrol was attacked with explosives, rocket-propelled grenades and gunfire.
The attack also injured Lance Corporal Matthew Ball, Private Allister Baker and an Afghan interpreter.
Lieutenant O'Donnell's uncle, Barry O'Donnell, said the recommendations in the report might have made a difference to what happened after the explosion, but from the family's perspective, that was too late.
"The issues about training and weapons systems would not have prevented the ambush. I do not see anything in the recommendations which would have definitely prevented this happening."
Begun soon after the incident, the inquiry praised the professionalism, bravery and "world-class service" of Lieutenant O'Donnell's patrol.
But despite noting that all New Zealand Defence Force staff were trained to the required standard, the inquiry report criticised a lack of Afghanistan-related training, saying it did not cover in enough depth all of the equipment that would be used.
This included Humvee driver training, weapons training with the Mark 19 automatic grenade launcher and .50 calibre machinegun and ground-to-air communications.
Although there was a short period of training for troops on arrival in Afghanistan, other instruction seemed to be incorporated into actual operations, the report said.
One of the 59 witnesses spoken to felt their training on the machinegun had been inadequate, consisting of firing half a belt from a dismounted weapon at a dirt bank.
Joint Forces commander Major General Dave Gawn said many of the inquiry's 69 recommendations had been accepted and changes made included better training for ambushes and the introduction of more light armoured vehicles.
However, it was not always possible to provide access in New Zealand to the types of equipment that would be used in Afghanistan because some items were provided by coalition partners.
When asked if he believed soldiers were receiving adequate training to prepare for Afghanistan, General Gawn replied that they were prepared to the "highest level we can".
The inquiry was also critical of the treatment and transport of the injured soldiers back to New Zealand, who were flown on a diverted air force 757.
It said the plane did not have the recommended medical equipment or supplies and the wounded soldiers had to be assisted on foot on to the plane, rather than on stretchers, and had to travel in seats.
Defence chief Lieutenant General Rhys Jones said there had been confusion with the in-theatre medical staff and staff in New Zealand about the soldiers' condition, but he admitted they could have taken more time to prepare the aircraft.
The family of Lieutenant O'Donnell said they were generally happy with the inquiry findings.
Mr O'Donnell said it had been a difficult time for the family, more so because of the public nature of the incident.
The support of the Defence Force and the reports of Lieutenant O'Donnell's exemplary skill and service made them proud, but they did not consider him a hero, he said.
"He was an ordinary New Zealand guy who did what he thought was right.
"I think he firmly believed in what he was doing."
DAY OF THE FATAL MISSION
As the four-vehicle unit made its way down towards a dry river bed, Lieutenant Tim O'Donnell, commander of the group, sat in the front-passenger seat of the leading Humvee.
Earlier in the day, the unit had left Forward Patrol Base Romero in the northeast of Bamiyan province on a mission to deliver supplies to villages in the area.
The morning progressed without incident and by late afternoon the group had begun their return journey along the same route.
At 4.30pm, they reached the dry river bed just south of the village of Karimak.
The road had been diverted east 100 metres from the main road because of flooding, and there was no indication of anything out of the ordinary as Lieutenant O'Donnell's Humvee navigated a hairpin bend just before the stream bed.
Suddenly there was a huge explosion under the vehicle, injuring those inside and causing it to catch fire.
The three vehicles behind immediately began to reverse as the unit came under small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire from the hills above.
The rear Humvee, which had a trailer, jackknifed, blocking the road and forcing the occupants out of the three vehicles.
A message was sent to base and the team began to return fire, but the heavy machinegun mounted on one of the vehicles failed.
Meanwhile, in the leading Humvee, Lance Corporal Matthew Ball and Private Allister Baker had managed to get out of the burning vehicle and were frantically trying to pull out an unresponsive Lieutenant O'Donnell.
Despite coming under repeated attack – at one stage an RPG struck the bonnet of the Humvee – they continued to try to rescue their commander until they realised it was impossible.
An Afghan interpreter who suffered eye injuries also escaped from the vehicle and fled to the stream bed.
The rear vehicles continued to be fired upon for the next half an hour, but when the assault stopped, the soldiers were able to drive forward and retrieve Lance Corporal Ball and Private Baker.
Just before 6pm, Afghan police arrived and secured the area.
Helicopters were unable to be sent in to evacuate the injured men because of bad weather.
An ambulance eventually made it to the site of the ambush some time after 8pm.
- The Dominion Post
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Post by Andy Wright on Jul 26, 2011 18:18:34 GMT 12
I hope these men have been recognised for their valiant efforts.
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Post by baz62 on Jul 26, 2011 20:07:37 GMT 12
I hope these men have been recognised for their valiant efforts. Hear hear! |
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Post by Officer Crabtree on Jul 26, 2011 20:44:28 GMT 12
I third that, and would like to add that I agree that the air force is heading toward coastguard status.
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Post by sqwark2k on Jul 27, 2011 11:03:22 GMT 12
Both the injured soldiers have been nominated for Bravery awards....
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Post by Andy Wright on Jul 27, 2011 15:29:11 GMT 12
Great to hear although it is small compensation for what they do/have done.
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Post by kiwiscanfly on Jul 28, 2011 23:43:30 GMT 12
I have a few questions based on the great discussion that has been going on here. Possibly one of you could shed some light on them for me. But first off well done to all those lads on the patrol and I'm glad there have been individuals nominated bravery awards, but as has been said small compensation.
My first question is based on the issue of lack of JTAC training and com's issues. I know that there is exercises with the ADF to help train JTAC's but what domestic training other than that is conducted in NZ? and does anyone think that this may push for arming the new advanced trainers to aid in domestic training with the army?
And secondly the MK-19 is the automatic grenade launcher am I right? if so when was this introduced into service, and was it introduced directly into theatre in Afgan? I know there was a need and a plan within the Ministry Of Defence to acquire a direct fire support weapon as part of the LDP. Was this part of the acquisition process?
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