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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 14, 2011 2:14:46 GMT 12
One of the least talked about bombers flown by RNZAF crews here is the Short Stirling. I reckon a thread with some stories, facts and details would be worthwhile. Here's one to kick it off:
Evening Post, Volume CXXXIII, Issue 81, 7 April 1942, Page 6
STIRLING BOMBER
ATTACKED OVER KIEL
NEW ZEALANDER'S ACCOUNT
(Special Correspondent.)
(Rec. 9.30 a.m.) LONDON, April 6.
A Stirling bomber piloted by Flight Lieutenant A. G. Humphreys, of Christchurch, dived from 15,000 feet to 150 feet when a Messerschmitt 110 attacked it over Kiel.
Flight Lieutenant Humphreys was returning from a heavy raid against Lubeck, where the Royal Air Force caused huge fires and damage, of which the Nazis bitterly complained.
"It was a perfect night—one of the best I have seen over Germany," said Humphreys in describing the raid. "The bright moonlight made things so clear that we saw the whole Baltic coast while we were crossing the Danish coast. I think everyone hit his target. It was a sight I shall not quickly forget. The whole town was blazing furiously, and exploding bombs were throwing up mushroom flames like volcanoes erupting.
"While we were returning home over the Kiel Canal my top gunner reported a twin-engined aircraft on the starboard beam. It attacked our tail with cannon shells, one of which exploded against the armour plate behind my head. The Nazi gave us five bursts, which put our gun turrets out of action. I had to play a game with him to dodge his fire. We had started at 15,000 feet, but when he made his last attack we were at 150 feet. He must have used up all his ammunition; he did a jaunt dive over our tail and then disappeared. We scraped home all right, unhurt except for the reargunner, who had a fragment of a bullet in his knee."
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Post by Luther Moore on Aug 17, 2011 6:33:53 GMT 12
Dave, I didn't know RNZAF had their own planes in the Europe campain?
Or are you talking about RNZAF Crew on attachment with Bomber Command?
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Post by oggie2620 on Aug 19, 2011 10:04:07 GMT 12
:)Yes RNZAF with Bomber Command. Daves right the Stirling guys are rather under quoted and just as brave.
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Post by Tony on Aug 19, 2011 10:32:48 GMT 12
Some very good references in this book. Highly recommended
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Post by Luther Moore on Aug 19, 2011 23:37:27 GMT 12
So they had short stirlings with full RNZAF crews in Bomber Command?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 11:24:05 GMT 12
Luther, the aircraft is called a Short Stirling, not Sterling. It is named after the Scottish city of Stirling.
No. 75 (NZ) Squadron was a New Zealand heavy bomber squadron posted to the RAF. They flew the Wellington, then the Stirling, then the Lancaster and finally the Lincoln before being transferred to the RNZAF.
New Zealand supplied aircrew members to that squadron just as they did to the other NZ squadrons and every other RAF squadron via the Empire Air Training Scheme. The quota of kiwis on No. 75 (NZ) Squadron was kept high throughout the war making it a truly NZ squadron, but there were also British, Australian and other nationality crew members on the aquadron in smaller numbers. So yes some of the Stirling crews were most likely to be all kiwi crews, whereas others were mixed.
I don't know where you got the idea that 90% of RNZAF members attached to the RAF were radio operators. These stats come from Wikipedia. I'm sure if they are wrong someone here will let us know, but there were certainly more pilots than Wireless Ops.
"During the war, the RNZAF contributed 2,743 fully trained pilots to serve with the RAF in Europe, the Middle East, and Far East. Another 1,521 pilots who completed their training in New Zealand were retained in country; either as instructors, staff pilots, or manning operational squadrons formed during the latter half of the war. In 1940, before the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan was fully developed, New Zealand also trained 183 observers and 395 air gunners for the RAF. From 1943 onwards, the training of wireless operator/air gunners, and navigators was carried on in New Zealand for Pacific operations. In addition, some 2,910 pilots were trained to elementary standards and sent to Canada to continue their training. More than 2,700 wireless operator/air-gunners, 1,800 navigators, and 500 bombardiers passed through the Initial Training Wing before proceeding to Canada. Of the 131,000 trainees who graduated in Canada under the Commonwealth Air Training Plan, New Zealanders formed 5.3%"
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 15:39:38 GMT 12
Here is an article that might help get your head around things Luther:
Evening Post, Volume CXXXIII, Issue 118, 21 May 1942, Page 7
THE FINAL STAGES
AIR TRAINING SCHEME
N.Z. AIRMEN IN BRITAIN
(By Wallace Reyburn.)
What happens to a New Zealand flyer, who has been trained in New Zealand and Canada under the Empire Air Training Scheme when he arrives in Britain? After passing through the various training schools in New Zealand and Canada, the flyer emerges as a fullyfledged pilot, observer, or wireless operator-gunner (known as a "Wog" in the Service).
With a group of other lads he embarks for England. But although he has been through the full course in New Zealand and Canada and wears his crested wings, flying "O" or "AG" badge, as the case may be, he is not ready to go into action immediately upon arrival in Britain. There is still more training awaiting him at an operational training unit.
It might occur to some readers to ask: "Why can't the whole training job be done in New Zealand, or in both Dominions, and the men arrive in Britain ready to step into R.A.F. planes and go on operations?" It would be ideal if it could, but it is not practical, for a variety of reasons. First, there is a lack of planes. Top notch war planes such as the Stirling, Manchester, Beauflghter, Vengeance, and Typhoon, to mention only a few of them, are needed for the active squadrons. Relatively few can be spared for training, and these must be kept for the operational training units in immediate support of each group of operational squadrons.
MEETING THE WAR PLANE. When he arrives in England, the New Zealand airman is ready to go to one of these highly specialised operational training units. Maybe he will have to wait his turn for a while; if so, he may be attached to the Army or to the Navy to improve his ability for co-operation later; or he may go to a special school for training young officers in leadership and command. But as soon as there is a vacancy for him he goes to an operational training unit, and there he gets on intimate terms with the latest aircraft.
No amount of training in any other type of plane is going to fit him to fly and fight a Beaufighter. The only way is to climb into a Beaufighter and learn its tricks ... and I hear that this newest of Britain's twin-engined fighter planes has quite a few, too.
Then there's the climate. Accustomed to flying in excellent weather conditions back home, the Empire Training Scheme pilot has a lot to learn when he takes off into the heavier, rainy, hazy atmosphere over Britain.*
And finally—camouflage. To the pilot trained in New Zealand, finding his home aerodrome there presented little difficulty. In the familiar, countryside, the hangars and clearly defined landing ground, brilliantly lighted for him at night, stood out for miles. When he comes to England he has to learn how to seek out camouflaged aerodromes, and make landings in the black-out.
"UNDER THE ENEMY'S NOSE." The newcomer from New Zealand is destined for one of the four main R.A.F. commands—Bomber, Fighter, Coastal Command, or Army Co-operation —and each of these has its operational training units (O.T.U.'s, as they are called). As an R.A.F. station commander defined it, "the function of an O.T.U. is to turn a qualified pilot into an operational pilot, under the very nose-of the enemy." That last phrase is important, for here is the pilot's first taste of the difference between flying over New Zealand, where he worries about the prospect of attack in the air only theoretically, and flying over Britain, when he can't be absolutely sure that there isn't a Messerschmitt waiting for him on the other side of that bank of clouds, ahead. . .
The trainee flies in the type of plane in which he is going to go into action when he passes on to an operational squadron, and he leaves the unit not as an individual pilot, air gunner, or observer, but as a member of a crew that has worked together throughout their time at the O.T.U. When the time comes for them to go on actual operations they are a trained team, knowing each other thoroughly.
And it doesn't take each air crew long to develop a healthy team spirit, even though they may have been drawn from as divergent walks of life as this typical one I met: a former Rhodesian bank clerk, a Canadian college student, an Australian farmer, and a New Zealand insurance salesman.
HEAVY DUTY SCHEDULE. The airmen fly and take lectures on alternate days. On the flying days duties start at seven in the morning and they are in and out of their planes and in and out of the sky until four in the afternoon, .stopping for a break for lunch at eleven. From four until ten at night they have free, then they fly again until dawn. Every day at the station is a flying day, no matter what the weather, because the flyers are split up into two groups, alternating flying with classes.
At the lectures they learn ship, submarine, and aircraft recognition, become familiar with new types of guns not yet installed in training planes in New Zealand, learn the intricate theories of "patrol and search" used in Coastal Command flying duties over the sea, and fill out their previous studies in navigation, bomb-aiming, wireless communication, etc. They have one day a week off and at the end of this two months' course they are granted a week's leave before joining a squadron as fully fledged representatives of New Zealand's contribution to the Empire's war in the air.
From England, these New Zealand airmen may be sent to fly and fight anywhere where British forces are in action. And so New Zealand is now regaining some of her airmen sons who have won their spurs in battle and are returning to strengthen the Royal New Zealand Air Force as seasoned warriors of the air.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 16:58:34 GMT 12
Back to the original topic, here are some NZ-related Stirling stories from the newspapers:
Evening Post, Volume CXXXIV, Issue 151, 23 December 1942, Page 5
STIRLING BOMBER
BATTLE IN DUISBURG
RAID
(Rec. noon.) LONDON, Dec. 22. Upon visiting New Zealand members of a Stirling squadron which participated in the Duisburg raid on December 20, Mr. W. J. Jordan heard the dramatic story of the adventures of a bomber captained by Squadron-Leader G. M. Allcock (Auckland).
A Junkers 88 attacked the Stirling when it was almost over the target. The bomber was silhouetted against flares and searchlights, but the rear gunner got in the first burst. Bits fell from the Junkers, but the enemy raked the Stirling with cannon and machine-gun fire and holed the starboard tailplane elevator and fin, and set the dinghy storage on fire. He also holed the starboard tank, from which petrol flooded into the fuselage. A shell burst .against the window of the rear turret, temporarily blinding the gunner.
OTHERS WOUNDED. The second pilot was wounded in the knee and a shell burst scorched the face of the flight engineer. A bullet struck the radio operator on the left hand, but he continued to repair the damaged radio and eventually the mid-upper gunner got in a burst and the Junkers went down in a vertical dive.
The Stirling located and bombed the target. The fire burned in the dinghy storage and everyone got ready to bail out. The fire did not spread, however, although it remained alight until near the English coast. When the base was reached the undercarriage was found to have jammed, whereupon Squadron Leader Allcock made a belly landing clear of the runway so he would not endanger any following aircraft.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 17:04:41 GMT 12
Evening Post, Volume CXXXV, Issue 13, 16 January 1943, Page 5
RAIDS UPON ITALY
(By Telegraph—Press Association—Copyright (Special Correspondent.) 7 LONDON January 14. No. 75 New Zealand Bombers Squadron flew heavy four-engined Stirling bombers in the Turin raid and took part in several raids before Christmas against Italian cities.
One crew, in which were several New Zealanders, actually flew over Turin for an hour, of which half an hour was spent at 1000 feet. Their bombs started the destruction of an important arms factory, after which they watched other bombers completing the havoc. The crew included Flying Officer W. J. R. Scollay (Wellington).
Two other crews recently encountered German night-fighters. Flight Sergeant A. G. Tolley (Wellington), and Sergeants U. J. S. Smith (Wellington) and T. Murphy (Dannevirke) were attacked by a Messerschmitt 109 when approaching the target, but the English rear-gunner got in a burst and saw the German begin a long dive. The enemy was claimed as probably destroyed.
Approaching its target, which was an important factory, a Stirling ran into heavy rain and so descended to 500 feet and released its bombs. When over the Dutch coast while returning to England another Messerschmitt was encountered. It attacked, and while the Stirling was diving to escape it was picked up by searchlights and was hit by flak. Then the fighter came in for another attack, flying so close that the crew heard his guns. However the Stirling dived to sea level and finally gained its base.
In addition to those mentioned, others in No. 75 Squadron includes Sergeants J. P. Buck (Wanganui), W. A. M. Hardy (Wanganui), J. C. Fabian: (Seddon), B. J. Hosie (Manaia), E. H. Gray (Wellington), R. A. Hodge (Wellington), L. W. Kennedy (Palmerston North), D. W. Findlay (Napier). Harding Smith (Nelson), and G. K. Samson and J. M. Bailey
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 17:09:00 GMT 12
Evening Post, Volume CXXXV, Issue 53, 4 March 1943, Page 5
FANTASTIC SCENE
N.Z. AIRMAN'S IMPRESSION OF BOMBING
LONDON, March 2. The New Zealand Stirling squadron took part in the big raid against Berlin last night. Many New Zealanders were in the crews. One of the squadron's navigators, describing the raid, said: "When we arrived over Berlin we saw that the main concentration was in the centre of the city. We had seen from a distance a grotesque lattice-work of searchlights, but as we flew through them and occasionally their blue lights flickered across us, little flak came up.
"We could then see under us a fantastic and unforgettable scene. Against a cloth of flame, sometimes white from new incendiaries, but more often growing red as the flames began to get a hold, we could see hanging in the sky our own flares. Then the Germans sent up an orange ball like a fire works. It exploded at 15,000 feet, dribbling slowly down in orange streaks. The whole scene was surrounded by probing searchlights. As we flew home we saw behind us searchlights slowly flickering out. The raid was over, but the fires were still glowing."
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 17:18:35 GMT 12
Evening Post, Volume CXXXV, Issue 61, 13 March 1943, Page 5
N.Z. CREWS IN MUNICH RAID
(By Telegraph—Press Association—-Copyright.) (Special Correspondent.) ,(Rec. 11.30 a.m.) | LONDON, March 12. Air crews of the New Zealand Stirling Bomber Squadron took part in the recent raid on Munich. They consider the attack one of the most successful they have seen.
Squadron Leader G. M. Allcock, D.F.C., was flying towards the target when he saw a huge explosion ahead of him. "There was suddenly a terrific pillar of flame 1000 feet high," he said. "We flew on through a smoke ring about 1½ miles in diameter caused by the explosion."
Sergeant B. H. Hurt, of Wellington, who is bomb-aimer in Allcock's Stirling said: "We got into the centre of a searchlight cone nearing the target. It was like being in a birdcage." Sergeant Peter Buck, of Wanganui, took excellent photographs of the Munich fires, which an intelligence officer later stated were well in the target area. Sergeant Buck saw five enemy fighters, but none came close enough to cause worry.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 17:23:53 GMT 12
Evening Post, Volume CXXXV, Issue 88, 14 April 1943, Page 4
NEW ZEALAIMDERS SAVED
(By Tele - Press Association—Copyright.)
(Special Correspondent.)
LONDON, April 12. The air search and rescue organisation sent out a Walrus which picked up the crew of a New Zealand Stirling bomber almost immediately after they had crashed in the Channel while returning from bombing Frankfurt.
The crew included Flight Sergeant G. K. Samson, Wellington. Sergeants J. Richards, Methven, W. Hardy, Wanganui, and three Canadians. Flight Sergeant Samson said: "We bombed Frankfurt all right, but were shot up badly while returning, the petrol tanks being holed and the rear turret badly damaged. Our Canadian skipper tried to hang on and reach England, but just as dawn was breaking and the coast was four miles away, he had to make up his mind to ditch the kite.
"We had sent out a message and we were no sooner in the dinghy than an escort of Spitfires appeared over us to keep off any Huns who might look in. Then in a remarkably short time the Walrus appeared and landed so near us that the dinghy was capsized by the wash, but that did not worry, us.
"We were soon aboard and flying home. It was certainly an excellent organisation."
The New Zealand Hampden torpedo-bomber squadron accounted for another large German tanker. It was anchored in a Norwegian fiord, where it was found by an all-English crew which saw flames shoot up to 3O0ft after their torpedo attack.
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Post by dakman on Aug 20, 2011 18:18:30 GMT 12
Dave has the story of the Stirling Friday the 13th been covered ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 20, 2011 18:33:26 GMT 12
I'm not aware of a Stirling with that name. There was a Halifax with that name, which had several kiwis in the crew. Marty Nicholl has lots of info on that aircraft and crew as he knew some of the crew members and has done a lot of research.
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Post by dakman on Aug 20, 2011 18:55:37 GMT 12
Thanks Dave ,had thought it was a Stirling ,
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pauld
Flying Officer
Posts: 65
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Post by pauld on Oct 11, 2011 19:47:13 GMT 12
I have the medals and Uniforms to a Stirling Pilot NZ411931 Flt/Lt F.I NORRIS who got a green Endorsement in his log book for bringing home and landing safely one of these beasties on two starboard engines only!!! he had a few shaky do's and flew a full tour with 15SQN. I also knew a crew member of "Friday the Thirteenth" F/O Keith Smith DFM, who sadly passed away last year. Grand chap, i court mounted his medals and Miniatures free! and i introduced Marty Nichols to Keith. Regards Paul D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Oct 11, 2011 20:22:41 GMT 12
Flying a damaged Stirling on two starboard engines only must have been quite a feat.
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Post by billiam92 on Apr 22, 2015 8:36:21 GMT 12
I am Frank Norris' step son & I have his log books with that green endorsement. I can provide a copy if you want. I have only just become aware of this forum
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Post by pjw4118 on Apr 22, 2015 8:55:30 GMT 12
Welcome to the Forum , theres lots to see here ! The NZ Bomber Command Ass ( I am a member ) would certainly appreciate a copy for our archives and displays. Can you contact me on spirits@xtra.co.nz.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 22, 2015 9:13:45 GMT 12
Yes welcome to the forum billiam92.
Peter (pjw4118) is being modest by stating he's a member of the New Zealand Bomber Command Association. He is the man who holds it all together with his tireless but much appreciated hard work in organising events and keeping their terrific archive, not to forget maintaining the Lancaster and associated collection.
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