New CDF announced

[strikemaster]

I agree Dave, all I've read shows he was one smart cookie who knew how to organise troops.

[kb]

While I agree with your comments Dave I don't 100% agree with your conclusion. Freyberg was an excellent Divisional (tactical) Commander and one of our greatest warriors. He never commanded at the highest level like Coningham and Park and so can't actually be compared with them on a like for like basis. His one opportunity at a level above Division Commander was at Crete. His first mistake there was to allow our troops to go to Greece. He should have told our P.M. that it was a suicide mission being fought for the wrong reasons. One has to wonder whether the call of a good fight clouded his judgement.

Sure, his N.Z, Brigadiers let him down at Crete but his basic defence plan was faulty. He had access to relevant Ultra intercepts and the question has to be asked as to why he had so much of his force covering the beaches when he was receiving information that the assault was not coming by ship. Even taking into account that too many of his immediate subordinates were inexperienced part timers, as the Commanding Officer one cannot argue that his performance was totally satisfactory.

Still, a bloody good Kiwi deserving of his reputation in this country, but he can't be compared with men who ran the Air Force equivalent of large Armies.

[Dave Homewood]

Yes, I see your point. However for at least part of the Italian campaign he was given control of other Divisions as well as our own, and he took over control of the battlefront from General Mark Clark (the world's worst general) for a time too. It was largely his planning, as I understand it, even if Clark ignored plans and did his own mad things, prolonging the war.

[kb]

I take your point too Dave. I have always tended to discount Freyberg's command of the NZ Corps because Clarke's animosity precluded him from making any effective decisions at a high enough level. Still, his Corps maxed out at three divisions which is not the same as an army.

I love these discussions, they make one think! An immediate result is that I have grabbed Barber and Tonkin-Lovell's book off the shelf for a read as they are more sympathetic to Freyberg than some other historians. ;D

[Dave Homewood]

An interesting thing about Freyberg - from what we've heard from many of the soldiers who served under him that we've been interviewing, is he was almost worshipped as a hero by the ordinary men and NCO's, and could hardly put a foot wrong. However most of the high ranking officers just below him all resented him as he'd suddenly turned up from Britain at the beginning of the war and taken over the 2nd Division, the plum job that all the other generals who were here in NZ through all the Army's tough times of the 1930's thoguth they were going to get and deserved. I think Freyberg's appointment was wholly the right decision though.

I wonder if Gen. Mark Clark was related to Helen Clark? ;D

[kb]

"I wonder if Gen. Mark Clark was related to Helen Clark?"

Most certainly! ;D Without a doubt!

[corokid66]

There might have been resentment in 1939 when Freyberg was announced as the GOC of 2NZEF by Fraser, however there was no one within the NZ Army at the time who had recent experience of Divisional manuvers.

Freyberg came highly regarded and people such as the legendary General Alan Brooke rated him as a good trainer, good tactical leader and a real fighting General. The contest was between Duggan who was NZ CGS at the time and was more of an administrative soldier than a wartime soldier. There were a number of former senior leaders of Brig/Majgen rank such as Cunningham, Ingliss, Falla, Burgess-Sinclair, Young and Russell, but it was felt that they were too long in the tooth. (All with the exception of Burgess were used in some capacity). However there was daylight between what Freyberg could offer and the locals who went through the 1930's.

Duggan was the only one on the active Army List of General Officer rank, and the Govt did not think he had the chops. The other substantive Brigadiers at the the time were Mead the AG, Puttick CMD, Mead SMD, McDonald-Weir NMD, and Bell the QMG. Most had more paper shuffling experience than actual recent field command. Also some were regarded by the Govt (Labour) of the Day to be what my late Grandfather described as "too freindly with Gordon Coates." There were a number of Colonels underneath them such as Reggie Miles (the CRA), Stevens, Stewart, Gentry, Parkinson, Conway, Crump, Baraclough, Hargest (an MP who was the one used political connections to score the 2nd Echelon and caused a bit of resentment), Clifton and Standish. Some of these became good Divisional leaders much later but initially lacked the right experience.

Over time NZ produced a couple of brilliant war-time generals. Steve Weir and Kippenberg were to become topshelf. Weir got pinched by the Poms to run 46 Div and my hunch is that Kip may have also got eventually pinched by the Poms also if he had not got his foot blown off at Casino when standing in for an injured Freyberg. His reputation when running 5 Brigade bought him much praise and like Frwyberg was respected. I still think that the Bennett and Purcivell performance at Singapore were worse than Clarke.

Freyberg at Crete ... well he had no air force, but for a handful of Hurricanes and Hargest's botched defence of the airfield did not help. Also Puttick was actually acting GOC of the Division insitu at the time wasn't he - as Freyberg was away in Cairo when the SHTF? To a certain extent Freyberg had to deal with Fraser whom was deeply concerned over the losses at Greece and Wavell who conned him into taking the Crete job. He was also in the position of not being able to share Ultra with anybody but himself and could only confer with the Poms at ME Command. That is why when Ingliss and Hargest whinged about him after he event the big boys in London and Freyberg's mates stood by him.

[Dave Homewood]

Am I right in remembering that Hargest was the General who was captured in the desert, later escaped from an Italian camp for Generals, and got back to the Allies, only to be killed on the D Day beaches? (one of the few kiwis there). He was also an MP, which I found odd that a member of Parliament would be away fighting a war, you'd never see that now.

As for Crete and the Air Force, did you know the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm had some Brewster Buffaloes operating from Crete during the Greece and Crete campaigns, and some Fulmars. In their usual fashion the Buff's were unsuccessful but the Fulmars did ok I believe. They were with No. 823 Squadron, which later re-equipped with the Albacore ack in Egypt.

My great uncle and others who were in North Africa and Italy who I've interviewed all thought that Howard Kippenberger was a brilliant chap, and apart from Freyberg, was their best leader.

[corokid66]

Yes thats right about Hargest Dave. He was a MP in Southland. Used his political connections to get himself the role as the original commander of 5 Brigade. Was captured sent to Italy and escaped through to Switzerland with Reggie Miles the Divisional CRA. It is fair to say that most of the dissent in the early days within the Division was from guys like Whiskey Bill Ingliss a Hamilton Magistrate and Hargest a polly who Freyberg felt their were better leaders to choose from within the NZ Army. Hargest was selected before Freyberg accepted the GOC role for example. Reggie Miles was a very good gunner and leader whom must of had a bad time of it as he was supposed to have topped himself in Spain before the wars end. That said the escape by Hargest and Miles was daring stuff and after reading Hargests book Campo 12 (I think) would make a great movie. Hargest though never made Major General only stayed as a Brigadier. He used his political connections to get himself an observers job at Overlord but was killed. Yes everything I have heard or read about Kippenberg really rates him. The other standout person in the Division was a young Bill Thornton, became a Brigadier at 28 during the Italian Campaign and later our second and longest serving CDS.

[Dave Homewood]

I have a copy of Farewell Campo 12, but I only got part way through the book before getting distracted and have not got back to it. i got up to the bit where he was in the special prison for Generals and they had a nice garden, batmen and all that. It is interesting how the Germans and Italians treated the captured Generals, not sure if the Allies recipricated the comparitive kindness. I was surprised by a few things in the book - one being that their initial treatment as POW's by the Italians was so harsh and squalid, the Allies really looked after the Ities as POW's. Don Nairn's book talks about how the Ities were allowed to wander the Royal Navy base and work as part of the community, etc, and had relative freedom.

Another surprising and interesting story was when Hargest was taken aboard a submarine to go from Africa to Italy, the Italian captain was married to a kiwi girl from Auckland who now lived in Italy, and he was a really nice chap who loved kiwis. It's a funny old world, eh.

[kb]

Great stuff ck66. Thanks. ;D

I believe that the real tragedy of Crete was that it was basically undefendable and even if the battle had been won we would have eventually evacuated. I don't think the Royal Navy would have been able to sustain supplying the Island.

The other thing about Crete was that it was never conquered. A bloody fight went on right through the war and it resulted in two of the three German CO's appearing at Nuremburg! Lots of horrible things happened there. A Kiwi Sergeant whose name I can't remember offhand is a legend on the Island as a result of his work with the resistance. I think he may have been recommended for a V.C. Unfortunately he didn't survive the war.

[Dave Homewood]

Yes, Crete was in a way like Guadalcanal, one of those islands that neither side wanted but both sides wanted the other side not to have. Like Gallipoli, some of New Zealand's greatest heroism happened on Crete, but it is still a military disaster and one we shall never forget.

There are so many stories from that battle, one of them is that of Brian Kain, who came around a corner into a square where an entire village of about 30-40 people were lined up by the Germans and a fireing squad was about to execute them all. Brian let loose on the Germans and wiped out the firing squad, saving the entire village, but he was fatally wounded in the melee. he is definately not forgotten.

[errolmartyn]

[quote author=corokid66
ACM Sir Denis Fulton. b 1906 d 1992. Became Director of Bomber Operations during the last year of the war as an ACDRE and rose to head RAF Air Transport Command between 1959-1962 and then Commander in Chief British Forces in Cyprus from 1962-1964.
[/quote]

I rather think you actually mean ACM Sir Denis (Hensley Fulton) BARNETT.

Some bio details for him can be found here: www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Barnett.htm

Errol

[errolmartyn]

[quote author=corokid66

Other Kiwi's made Air Marshal in the RAF such as Charles Broughton who was Air Member for Supply in the mid 1960's, [/quote]

Broughton was born in England. His Kiwi connection is that he came to New Zealand at age two and returned to England after attending Christchurch Boys' High School.

Some bio details here: www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Broughton_C.htm
But footnote is incorrect in stating 'originally from New Zealand'.

Errol

[errolmartyn]

[quote author=corokid66

Rodderick Clarke who was Deputy Chief of Air Staff at SHAEF and then Air Marshal Commanding British Air Forces South East Asia at gthe end of the war (Under Keith Park), [/quote]

This was actually Sir (Charles) Roderick CARR.
Some bio details about him at www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Carr.htm
also further info in my 'Swift to the Sky' (pages 59-60)

Errol

[corokid66]

Thanks for the correcting a couple of minor errors Errol, most of that was done on the fly. Missing Barnett was indeed a typo. Nevertheless Broughton considered himself a Kiwi even though like Freyberg came to NZ as a 2 year old and Carr never used the name Charles though yes he was Knighted, according to the people at Hendon I talked to a few years ago when I lived nearby. Still it does not detract from the leading role Kiwi's played in the RAF over the last 90 odd years. ;D

[skyhawkdon]

Any word yet on who the new Air Force CAF is?

[hawkeye]

No news on new CAF or CA.
WRT Crete, I think Freyburg was not able to act or be seen to act on Ultra info lest the source be compromised.
As for his competentcy, I sure he probably made msitakes at Crete. But the key lesson here is that he learned from his mistakes. The key lesson for us is that Generals - like the rest of us have to learn the hard way. Unfortunaely that costs live in the process and hopesfully less in the long run. The Germans in the African campaign were always baffles as to why the Brits would sack a general just as he was getting on top of his trade.

[Dave Homewood]

Major General Rhys Jones was sworn in as the new Chief of Defence Force yesterday (24th of January) by the Governor General and Jerry Mataparae is, I guess, now a civilian.

[angelsonefive]

Dec 8, 2010 12:42:04 GMT 12 strikemaster said:

That would be Keith Park, a legend for sure. The other tho, is a mystery to me.

The other was Coningham? He was an Aussie tho, so it can't be him.

Arthur Coningham may have been born in Australia, but he was certainly thought of as being a New Zealander by his service colleagues.
I believe his nickname "Mary" was a corruption of "Maori."