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Post by phil on Dec 6, 2010 21:17:52 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 6, 2010 23:17:44 GMT 12
He is a popular officer from what I have heard.
Do all the other chiefs change at the same time as when he moves up? I hope not, the current Chief of Air Force, AVM Lintott, is an excellent chap.
Interesting that the article states Rhys Jones goes from a Major General to a Lieutenant General, that sounds like a drop in rank rather than a promotion. Lieutenants are lower than Majors further down the management scale.
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Post by SEAN on Dec 7, 2010 7:23:37 GMT 12
Dave
This may help on the rank issue. This came from and Army manual.
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant general originally meant one who acted in lieu of, or instead of, a general.
A case that illustrates this was that of Lord Gerard of Brandon being commissioned to be lieutenant general of all of His Majesty's Forces in 1679 during the absence of the Duke of Monmouth the captain general. There were no lieutenant generals in the standing army until this appointment, but on his accession in 1685 James II created three such appointments. In the course of time lieutenant generals ceased to be mere deputies of generals and were given definite commands and duties as at the present day.
Major General
Sergeant major generals held appointments in the Parliamentary forces but during the late 17th century sergeant was omitted from the title thus leaving major general and creating the anomaly of a major general being junior in rank to that of lieutenant general. Other than those serving in the Parliamentary forces, Oliver Cromwell also created a number of them to administer the military districts that existed from 1655 to 1657.
And no, all the chiefs do not change at the same time. Totty is already on an extension, which he got at the same time as current CDF, so he should be going too any day now....
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Post by ErrolC on Dec 7, 2010 7:31:45 GMT 12
Dave This may help on the rank issue. This came from an Army manual. .... My girlfriend asked me about the generals' ranks last night, and I was able to provide the short version of this! |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 7, 2010 9:50:18 GMT 12
Blimey, Sergeant Major General, bit confusing. Bloody army, almost as odd as the navy. At least the Air Force had enough brains to sort things out properly when they formed up.
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Post by ErrolC on Dec 7, 2010 10:42:48 GMT 12
Blimey, Sergeant Major General, bit confusing. Bloody army, almost as odd as the navy. At least the Air Force had enough brains to sort things out properly when they formed up. So remind me which rank is CO of a (Air Force) squadron?  |
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Post by oggie2620 on Dec 7, 2010 11:11:11 GMT 12
Depends on the Squadron LOL... However we Brits keep it stupid keep it simple so we went for the obvious! The RAF Regiment cant cope with PO, FO and FS so they have added Lance Corporal so they can be more like the Army. Mind you thats why we only let them use crayons not pens! LOL
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 7, 2010 11:24:56 GMT 12
So remind me which rank is CO of a (Air Force) squadron? There are always the odd anomaly but in my days it was a Squadron Leader. Makes sense. Just as a Flight Lieutenant was in charge of a Flight, a Wing Commander in charge of a Wing, and a Group Captain in charge of a Group or Base. Air Commodore means they get a free boat I think. And anything above that gets a shiny silver badge and can arrest people, I think that's how it went. |
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Post by phil on Dec 7, 2010 12:01:19 GMT 12
Blimey, Sergeant Major General, bit confusing. Bloody army, almost as odd as the navy. At least the Air Force had enough brains to sort things out properly when they formed up. So remind me which rank is CO of a (Air Force) squadron? That depends on the SQN, 3, 5, 6, 40 and some some others are Wing commanders (or equivalent in the case of 6) , smaller units are normally SQNLDRs. |
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Post by strikemaster on Dec 7, 2010 14:16:18 GMT 12
Depends on the Squadron LOL... However we Brits keep it stupid keep it simple so we went for the obvious! The RAF Regiment cant cope with PO, FO and FS so they have added Lance Corporal so they can be more like the Army. Mind you thats why we only let them use crayons not pens! LOL I have a mate in the RAF Regiment that would disagree. :-) He still uses the term "Rock ape" tho. |
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Post by Deane B on Dec 7, 2010 15:09:48 GMT 12
[/quote]
There are always the odd anomaly but in my days it was a Squadron Leader. Makes sense. Just as a Flight Lieutenant was in charge of a Flight, a Wing Commander in charge of a Wing, and a Group Captain in charge of a Group or Base.
[/quote]
Well when I left just over two years ago, there were more Wing Commanders that we physically had wings on aircraft !! They were everywhere, over 50 from memory, for a force of 2700 personnel.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 7, 2010 21:10:41 GMT 12
I recall being told when I was in that not long before I joined they realised there were too many Sergeants nad so busted loads of them back to Corporal, doing the same job. I'll bet they wouldn't do that with the Wing Co's though.
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Post by adzze on Dec 7, 2010 21:47:01 GMT 12
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Post by corokid66 on Dec 7, 2010 23:44:41 GMT 12
Of course Sam Elworthy became MRAF and the only Kiwi to get a Queens Baton. He was one of only three Kiwi's to make the rank of Air Chief Marshal. Trivia Question: Who were the other two?  One is a household name, but the other one will get you searching through the paper work. There were loads of Kiwi's who filled the higher ranks of the RAF during the war and post war period. Even ones like Clarke-Hall served before the war as an Air Marshal, retired to NZ and re-signed with the RNZAF at the out break of hostilities as a Squadron Leader and rose up the ranks locally and became an A/CDRE. It is a shame that most are not celebrated or remembered. Happy to post a brief outline on a few if history buffs are interested or start a post on Kiwi leaders in the RAF. |
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Post by strikemaster on Dec 8, 2010 12:42:04 GMT 12
That would be Keith Park, a legend for sure. The other tho, is a mystery to me.
The other was Coningham? He was an Aussie tho, so it can't be him.
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Post by phil on Dec 8, 2010 12:51:08 GMT 12
I recall being told when I was in that not long before I joined they realised there were too many Sergeants nad so busted loads of them back to Corporal, doing the same job. I'll bet they wouldn't do that with the Wing Co's though. Reversion in rank is a bit popular right now, especially with WOs reverting to FS. Still happens at the WGCDR level too, I can think of at least one. |
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Post by ErrolC on Dec 8, 2010 14:49:23 GMT 12
That would be Keith Park, a legend for sure. The other tho, is a mystery to me. The other was Coningham? He was an Aussie tho, so it can't be him. Aussie born, NZ raised. Note his (Aussie) father was a notorious convicted con-artist, while he was "a non-smoker, near teetotaler, and impatient with obscene language" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Coningham_(RAF_officer)Although I assume corokid66 wasn't referring to him. |
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Post by corokid66 on Dec 9, 2010 1:21:55 GMT 12
That would be Keith Park, a legend for sure. The other tho, is a mystery to me. The other was Coningham? He was an Aussie tho, so it can't be him. Aussie born, NZ raised. Note his (Aussie) father was a notorious convicted con-artist, while he was "a non-smoker, near teetotaler, and impatient with obscene language" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Coningham_(RAF_officer)Although I assume corokid66 wasn't referring to him. ACM Sir Denis Fulton. b 1906 d 1992. Became Director of Bomber Operations during the last year of the war as an ACDRE and rose to head RAF Air Transport Command between 1959-1962 and then Commander in Chief British Forces in Cyprus from 1962-1964. Other Kiwi's made Air Marshal in the RAF such as Charles Broughton who was Air Member for Supply in the mid 1960's, Rodderick Clarke who was Deputy Chief of Air Staff at SHAEF and then Air Marshal Commanding British Air Forces South East Asia at gthe end of the war (Under Keith Park), Mary Conningham as mentioned, Sir Rochford Hughes who also headed the RAF in SE Asia in the late 1960's and retired back to NZ, Hector McGregor who headed Fighter Command in from 1959-1962, Sir Andrew McKee who was AOC Transport Command prior to Barnett and later returned home to Chair NAC if I recall, and of course Sir Kenneth Hayr who rose to be DCDS of whom I had a lovely chat to at Wings over Taupo back in 2001 following a sublime demonstation in his YAK52 and before that wonderful display he put up in the Hunter. So sad that just a few weeks later we lost him at Biggin Hill. As for Conningham I just realised why Monty rated him in the Desert. By the sounds of it he also was a wowzer with the no smoking, no drinking, no swearing thing.  So cannot be a real Kiwi then eh! Didn't Monty himself also spent his formative years in Tassie for awhile? I reckon there was a bit of a Kiwi Mafia in the RAF during the Sam Elworthy reign. There were a few AVM's and ACDRE's on the books at the time.  |
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Post by kb on Dec 9, 2010 6:51:38 GMT 12
Although Coningham didn't make ACM he most certainly should have. From the Desert to through Europe he was Monty's Air Force equivalent (not lackey). From memory he commanded all Air Force Units during the invasion of Sicily (including USAAF) and the same during the invasion of Europe. He was the driving force behind the close air support of troops, starting in the Desert. With Keith Park he was one of only two Kiwi's (and he was a Kiwi despite being born in OZ) who made a major strategic contribution to WW2. His role was largely offensive while Park's was largely defensive.
He was held back by lack of diplomacy and also, at the end of the war there was a bit of a cloud involving keeping some captured articles. Although it would be a close call, if a decision had to be made about contribution to the War I would rate him just ahead of Keith Park. He was highly regarded by theAmericans.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 9, 2010 7:15:42 GMT 12
With Keith Park he was one of only two Kiwi's (and he was a Kiwi despite being born in OZ) who made a major strategic contribution to WW2. I'm fairly convinced that General Sir Bernard Freyberg should be included in that statement. He was put in charge of the defence of Crete, but poor use of intelligence and poor communication between his generals meant that was a lost cause, though they made quite an impact on the german forces as they withdrew. However he redeemed himself in North Africa and then successfully commanded the biggest Allied Division in the Italian campaign and was very involved in the strategic detail of that campaign. |
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So cannot be a real Kiwi then eh! Didn't Monty himself also spent his formative years in Tassie for awhile? 