Poll: Which Did You Prefer - Pre or Post Kahu?

[Dave Homewood]

I am just talking about the looks, the "aesthetic quality" as we said in the RNZAF, of the A4K Skyhawk. Which did you prefer?
A: The pre-Project Kahu A4K's with the hump and the brown/green/green scheme?
B: Or the post-Kahu Squawk with no hump, sleek look and go-faster low viz grey/green/green sheme?

I preferred the latter, much more 'warry', and they just seemed to go faster. Though I have an Aussie magazine with a photo of one in the olf original scheme at an Aussie airshow, and I do not have a clue why but the paintwork is high gloss. Might have been done specifically for the show, I'm not sure. But it looks superb in gloss. Very impractical though.

[turboNZ]

I reckon they look better in the latter as well.
Looks modern and gives the A-4K an up to date look with the rest of the world.

The 3-tone colours are very "last-year" ;D
It's all about the catwalk you know

TNZ

[Bruce]

You have forgotten the Low Budget "Green" scheme the squarks wore at the end of thier RNZAF Careers. I reckon an A4 low and fast looks good whatever the scheme! I particularly remember the Taupo Airshow (2001 I think) when two Skyhawks snuck up the lake at really low level and just appeared from behind the low scrub going like the clappers (Doppler effect disguised the noise til they were right on you) The airport at Taupo is elevated above the lake, with a great view of the mountains behind. Against this backdrop the Skyhawks put on the most polished display I have ever seen against a totally cloudless, Deep blue sky. Absolute Magic..... (did anyone else see that display?)
The A4 in my model collection is in the 1980s brown scheme, which in my mind I have linked to the "Golden Age" of A4 operations, But it has High vis Kiwi Roundels and a bent refuelling probe. When they first arrived they had straight probes and Silver fern roundels - Ihave seen a picture of them in this config, but it is really rare. It is possible that the paint finish was Gloss at this time, Like the Blunty's and later faded, alternatively at the same time the Singapore Airforce had A4s in a similar "South East Asia" scheme but with a gloss finish - perhaps the picture was miscaptioned? I guess losing the Hump during the Kahu upgrade made them less of a Skyhawk in my opinion as that was the distinctive feature of them during my formative years, so I guess I'll have to vote Pre Kahu....
Of course there was also the Golden Skyhawk of 1986 (?)

[Dave Homewood]

The gold painted TA4K was done in 1987, to mark the 50th Anniversary of the RNZAF. Yes, it was gorgeous. That aircraft later crashed I believe, once back in camo.

Of course RNZAF Skyhawks have worn other schemes two, some wore overall light grey and some two-toned grey schemes for a short time when the A4G's were bought from the Royal Australian Navy. They later conformed with the others when they were upgraded to A4K status.

I was really only focusing on the two most well-known schemes, but it is interesting that there were lots of different colour schemes used.

They very nearly donned desert camouflage in 1990 too of course. No. 75 Squadron was lined up to go to the Gulf as part of Desert Shield, they trained and vaccinated all the squadron members and they were on high alert to go any time, but then Palmer backed down on sending combat forces and sent No. 40 Sqn instead, much to the annoyance of many of the Skyhawk boys. I'd like to have seen one in desert pink.

[corsair67]

Hi guys, I was just trawling through some of your old threads and thought you might be interested in this site, in case you haven't seen it already -

motty.hobbyvista.com/

On page three of the Kiwi Skyhawks collection there are some good photos of NZ6205 and NZ6201 in the glossy Skyhawk camoflage.

[Dave Homewood]

Wow, great link, thanks Craig. I shall have a proper peruse when I get home.

I'd not seen the 2 Sqn aircraft with checkerboards before as far as I can recall. And I love the grey ex-RAN scheme with 75 Sqn markings. Nice.

[corsair67]

Glad to be of service! ;D

I'd forgotten about that site, but reading your previous thread triggered my memory about Motty's site again.

The A-4s have worn some pretty cool schemes over the years, except the final one. I didn't like that one much at all, and the serials on the tail looked silly!

[Parrotfish]

admin said:

They very nearly donned desert camouflage in 1990 too of course. No. 75 Squadron was lined up to go to the Gulf as part of Desert Shield, they trained and vaccinated all the squadron members and they were on high alert to go any time, but then Palmer backed down on sending combat forces and sent No. 40 Sqn instead, much to the annoyance of many of the Skyhawk boys. I'd like to have seen one in desert pink.

I think you mean a back down by Jim Bolger. The fine extract that follows from a brill paper explains all (sorry just couldn't help myself ;D ) God I'm evil.
"Following the insurgency by Iraq into Kuwait, there was immediate and resounding condemnation from the international community and within the United Nations, a call under resolution UNSC660, condemning Iraq and demanding the immediate withdrawal of Iraqi forces “to the positions in which they were located on 1 August 1990” (UN, 2003) was made. UNSC660 was quickly followed by UNSC661 on the 6th of August, calling for complete economic sanctions against Saddam Hussain and Iraq. Following instigation and powerful support by the United States of America, on the 29th of November 1990 under resolution UNSC678, the United Nations agreed to “use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660(1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area” (UN, 2003) if Iraq did not withdraw by the 15th of January 1991, which was universally understood to mean the ejection of Iraqi forces from Kuwait by force of military power.

The New Zealand landscape
During the time of Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait in August 1990 to the adoption at the United Nations of resolution UNSC678 in late November 1990, New Zealand had no less than three Prime Ministers and two very ideologically different governments who while totally agreeing on the illegal nature of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, took two distinctly different views as to the role New Zealand should take if any.

At the time of Iraq’s push into Kuwait, Geoffrey Palmer was Prime Minister and leader of the Labour government. With the invasion of Kuwait, New Zealand was speedy and unequivocal in its condemnation of the actions of the Iraqi government in sending military forces into Kuwait and displaying its “naked act of aggression” (Malik,1992:91) with Prime Minister Palmer calling the act “jackbooted thuggery” (Malik,1992:91). The Labour government put in place sanctions as prescribed by the United Nations under resolution UNSC661 and gave support for action under the control of the United Nations. However, following the invasion of Kuwait, the United States of America were garnering the support of nations for a multinational force (MNF) to force Iraq out of Kuwait while associating it with the United Nations. The Labour government was unhappy with the role being played by the United States in assembling the MNF, and were concerned by the lack of a United Nations command and control structure, a concern born out by the statement of the United Nations Secretary General of the time Perez de Cuellar who said that the United Nations Security Council only learned of progress of the war “after the actions have taken place” (H. Ashton,1996:5).

Within the Labour party of the day, very real factionalism and infighting existed. With an up coming election looming on the horizon in just a few short weeks and Labour performing poorly in the opinion polls, the government was paralysed as to what it could or should do. As historically a firm supporter of the United Nations and with New Zealand a founding member, the Labour government was keen to be seen to support action against Iraq within a United Nations mandate and structure. However the left wing of the party was concerned that New Zealand not take an overtly military role. They feared this might risk the possibility of offending against its own anti nuclear legislation, which outlawed the use of New Zealand forces along side potentially nuclear armed forces. A medical and humanitarian role, which in the first instant be civilian in outlook was favoured. With the concerns, of the left in particular in mind and a belief that the New Zealand public would not support its military being deployed to the region, the Labour government offered the use of medical teams under the flag of the Red Cross/Red Crescent organisation directly to Saudi Arabia- an offer that was not taken up, while receiving muted praise,.
The feeling against the use of New Zealand military forces in the region under the United States led MNF was strong within the Labour party Cabinet and Caucus. Within the Labour Cabinet at the time the vote against taking part in any conflict was 18 to 2(Malik, 1992:92). Even after receiving a direct request from the Emir of Kuwait, the Labour government rejected any idea of joining the preparation for military action against Saddam Hussein’s army in Kuwait (Cudworth, 2002:137), particularly one that had little United Nations control such as the United States led MNF.

Finally after much angst and soul searching the Labour government approved the use of an air force C-130 Hercules for the month of September which was joined by an air force 727, for the purpose of ferrying third party nation refugees who had fled out of Kuwait, to Jordan under United Nations sanction after the Hercules made a delivery of milk powder to Egypt to assist with the refugees in the last days of August. However the aircraft had returned to New Zealand by the 1st of October 1990, before the expected defeat of the now Mike Moore led Labour government at the polls later in the month.

Immediately prior to the national election, Labour was still displaying unease at the United States led MNF but acknowledged the hope that a true United Nations initiative would be forth coming when Prime Minister Mike Moore stated “we stand by, if necessary to support the UN if it calls for a more vigorous response… but our response will be part of the UN response, not that of another country” (O’Connell, 2001:4). Ultimately it was a consideration that was removed from the Labour party by its defeat in the October election by the National party.

The new National government, under the leadership of the Prime Minister Jim Bolger, had none of the in party ructions or issues of the previous Labour government. Jim Bolger and his Cabinet had no difficulty in seeing a military role for New Zealand, in some form, within the United States led MNF against Iraq in order to fore fill the requirements of United Nations resolution UNSC678. National saw the United States led MNF as being a legitimate force under the mandate of the United Nations and saw no issues with the legality of New Zealand forces operating within or along side potentially nuclear armed friendly forces- no questions asked.

National Government Response
The view taken by the government was that the actions and policies of the fourth Labour government under David Lange in the mid to late 1980s and in particular, the placing into law New Zealand’s anti-nuclear legislation in 1987 had effectively brought to an end the ANZUS treaty and removed New Zealand from its traditional Western alliance structure to the point of isolation. Relations with the United States had become strained directly as a result and cooperation in the areas of defence, trade and intelligence were removed. In the words of the Secretary for State of the United States George Shultz to then Prime Minister David Lange in 1986 “we part company as friends, but we part company” (Hoadley, 2000:v).

In the Gulf crisis and war, the National government saw a way that New Zealand could start the process of thawing the frostiness with the United States in particular but also repairing relations other traditional allies such as Australia and the United Kingdom who had been disappointed by the actions of New Zealand who they viewed as having brought to an end important defence relationships by her actions over the nuclear free legislation, ANZUS and New Zealand’s more general move towards a peace movement overview. The Gulf crisis and war gave the government an opportunity where they felt by making a military contribution, New Zealand could re-enter the Western alliance and find favour again while also giving New Zealand a more obvious international role. Don McKinnon, Deputy Prime Minister and minister for Foreign Affairs, saw it giving New Zealand the chance to be “seen as a nation reasserting its bonna fides in the Western alliance” (Malik, 1992:95). In the some what more cynical words of Don McKinnon, the situation in the Persian Gulf provided New Zealand with “a perfect opportunity- a ready made vehicle if you like”, to re-enter the Western alliance (Cudworth, 2002:89).

When the decision was made by the National government to make a contribution to the United States led MNF, different options were considered as to just what that contribution should be. Within the Cabinet there was feeling for a full combat role for New Zealand within the United States led MNF. However the National government was probably more than aware of the feelings of the New Zealand people for no combat contribution, as shown by numerous opinion polls at the time. With this in mind, the government prepared a list of suggestions for a contribution including air transport from the air force and medical teams. In order to integrate successfully into elements of the MNF, New Zealand sought input from traditional allies the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Canada. After guidance from these countries, on the 3rd of December 1990, the New Zealand government committed two air force Hercules transport aircraft and a military medical team which would be joined by a second medical team that was announced on the 21st of January 1991. The government left the door open for further commitments if deemed necessary. The public’s wish and the politically expedient option for a non-combat commitment had been achieved, complete with conditional bi-party support from the opposition Labour party provided there was no move to New Zealand combat forces at a later date. "

[Dave Homewood]

Cheers for putting me straight there, it all seems so long ago now.

Award to Parrotfish too for the forum's longest post!

[Parrotfish]

Thanks Dave ;D

Forgot to say- the early 'retro chram' of the pre Kahu A4s is what cranks my handle. (Did I mention I got an 'A' for the uni essay that extract came from ;D )

[dpdouglas]

That was a very long extract.and congrts but i prefer the post Kahu.

[agalbraith]

Me too

I prefer the KAHU ones with the lizard wraparound scheme and ILS antennas etc.

Just me, but I reakon they looked pretty cool then.

Anthony

[Phil]

I prefer them post Kahu, becuase I worked on them then.

[mumbles]

I think I liked the final scheme best but it gets complicated.
When I was a kid i liked the lizard scheme, 'cos it was modern and cool. All humped A-4's were also cooler. Post Kahu lizard still ruled, and all humped A-4's were uncool. Green made lizard look old fashioned and hence uncool. Now they are retired I have a fondness for the aforementioned 'retro charm' of the bright and loud SEA scheme.

If they were still active would they be in the gloss dark sea grey that everything else is wearing?

Also a pity that there were no other special schemes than the gold T-bird. Were there any schemes planned that were never realised?

[phil]

I think they would still be green, we only painted the Iro dark grey becuase we were sick of them being called 'army helicopters' all the time. I'm not sure it's helped.

[mumbles]

Is writing "AIR FORCE" in big white letters on the side having any effect?

[phil]

You'd think so wouldn't you? For the Lions vs Manawatu game they flew into the stadium with the Manawatu mascot. For the event they chose one of the frames with the white AIR FORCE, and to make things even better they painted www.airforce.mil.nz down each side of the tail boom in really big letters.

Next day the local radio station morning DJs thanked the army for providing the Iroquois...

There's no helping some people.