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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 27, 2008 21:41:20 GMT 12
It's well known that most Maoris who joined the New Zealand Army in WWII went on to serve in the 28th Battalion which was part of the 2nd New Zealand Division in the North African and Med campaigns. But we had a 3rd Division fighting in the Pacific Campaign, and I was wondering did any Maori units get attached to the 3rd Division? Or any individuals? or were they restricted to the 28th Battalion?
I know there were of course many Maoris in the RNZAF up in the Pacific as groundcrew and aircrew, and also some aboard our naval ships, but I've never seen any reference to any in the army there, and am just wondering.
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brianc
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by brianc on Dec 29, 2012 6:58:20 GMT 12
Hi Dave
Who were these Maori RNZAF aircrew in the Pacific?
Happy New Year
Brian
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 29, 2012 10:57:19 GMT 12
I'd have to go through my records but there are several in the Venturas with Maori names.
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Post by errolmartyn on Dec 29, 2012 11:18:13 GMT 12
Hi Dave Who were these Maori RNZAF aircrew in the Pacific? Happy New Year Brian At the risk of repeating myself . . . Through my interest in New Zealanders in aviation prior to 1950 (database-index of about 60,000 individuals) I have been approached a number of times by folk interested in tackling this subject, but all have soon given it away upon realising the difficulties involved. There are now no full-blood Mâori and identifiying who is Mâori' or their percentage of Mâoriness is a very complicated business as the result of over two centuries of Maori-European inter-marriage. To establish who was Mâori serving in the RNZAF during the Second World War, for instance, would to begin with involve examining in detail hundreds or perhaps thousands of individual service records and then checking out the Whakapapa of each man or woman. In other words, what you are asking of Dave is a near impossible task (unless he has nothing better to do with the rest of his life!). Errol |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 29, 2012 11:57:30 GMT 12
Hi Brian, I have posted the names into your other thread to keep them all together.
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Post by ngatimozart on Dec 29, 2012 18:53:38 GMT 12
Hi Errol, there are still full blooded Māori around. Ok, as far as I am aware there was only one specific Māori unit in the 2nd WW and that was the 28th Māori Battalion which fought in the European Theatre. Sir Apriana Ngata was the force behind the formation of the Māori Battalion and it was always known that only one battalion could be realistically raised and sustained by Māori.
Ok on tracking down Māori serving in RNZAF 1939 - 45. Going by names only is a bit hit and miss. Where there is an obvious Māori surname, yes a good chance of that person being Māori. A Māori first name, probably and a Māori second name, maybe. Then you have Māori that have European names, such as my uncle Arthur James Wellington. Wellington has been the family name since 1820 odd and it was taken as a mark of respect by my great great grandfather to the Duke of Wellington (he who whipped Napoleons ass) with the Dukes blessing - they met in London. My uncles & mothers generation were the first generation in my immediate family to have non Māori blood (their mother was Irish - their father a full blooded Māori, died 1984). The surname came first and as the missionary hold became tighter and the old ways disappeared, European christian names started to be used.
So I think the only way to be sure would be to check records and I don't know if the RNZAF collected ethnic data back then. Another way would be to contact marea nationwide and ask them for names of those who served in RNZAF during WW2. Would be a humungous job but most marae would know who did. It would have to be approached very carefully and sensitively, would involve lots of negotiation and be over a long time period.
Errol, I've got the ok from the kuia to request a copy of my uncles records from NZDF, so applied on line last Friday. Paul.
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brianc
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by brianc on Jan 2, 2013 5:12:36 GMT 12
Thanks to one and all who have responded to my enquiry. I have received some excellent material, which encourages me to continue with my quest to write about Maori aircrew. I hope the end result, in book form, will appear in about a year's time or so. I will endeavour to keep those interested informed of progress etc. Thanks once again and Happy New Year Brian Cull  |
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Post by sprjock on Jan 11, 2013 12:09:14 GMT 12
It's well known that most Maoris who joined the New Zealand Army in WWII went on to serve in the 28th Battalion which was part of the 2nd New Zealand Division in the North African and Med campaigns. But we had a 3rd Division fighting in the Pacific Campaign, and I was wondering did any Maori units get attached to the 3rd Division? Or any individuals? or were they restricted to the 28th Battalion? I know there were of course many Maoris in the RNZAF up in the Pacific as groundcrew and aircrew, and also some aboard our naval ships, but I've never seen any reference to any in the army there, and am just wondering. Hallo Dave , sorry I'm late . Re. your query . The 28th (Mâori) Battalion website has this to say
Mâori in other services
Many Mâori also served with other units in the 2nd NZ Division, with the 3rd NZ Division in the Pacific, in New Zealand-based army units and in the Home Guard. Others served with the Air Force, Navy and Merchant Navy. Some Mâori women served in the Army Nursing Service and the women's army, air force and navy auxiliaries. Between 1939 and 1945 almost 16,000 Mâori volunteered for war service, out of a total population of fewer than 100,000.
www.28maoribattalion.org.nz/story-of-the-28th/about-the-28th So yes , Maori soldiers did serve in the Pacific . This Between 1939 and 1945 almost 16,000 Mâori volunteered for war service, out of a total population of fewer than 100,000. rather suggests that more men and women served without the 28th (Maori) Battalion rather than within it . As to whether there has been a data base of any sort put together is anybody's guess . You may well turn out to be the one who answers it . cheers , Jock |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 11, 2013 13:11:15 GMT 12
Thanks for that. I guess that total of 16,000 counts all the Home Guard, and other NZ-based units and organisations too, not just overseas service.
By the way my original query was from years ago, and in the meantime I have learned a lot more about 28 Battalion and the NZ Army in WWII.
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Post by errolmartyn on Jan 11, 2013 16:12:54 GMT 12
"Between 1939 and 1945 almost 16,000 Mâori volunteered for war service, out of a total population of fewer than 100,000."
"Volunteered' of course does not necessarily equate with 'served' in some cases. There will have been those who volunteered but were turned down for service for medical reassons, etc. Also does this volunteer figure also include those who applied to join the Home Guard?
Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 11, 2013 18:14:58 GMT 12
Were Maori exempt from being drafted in WWII?
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Post by Luther Moore on Jan 11, 2013 18:32:31 GMT 12
My Grandfather was Maori and got sent to Japan.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 11, 2013 19:56:03 GMT 12
That would be after the war of course.
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Post by Luther Moore on Jan 11, 2013 20:01:52 GMT 12
Unless he was a spy  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 11, 2013 20:15:08 GMT 12
The first draft of soldiers who were sent to Japan as part of J Force went from Italy where those with the least amount of service (plus some experienced officers and NCO's) were sent there for a tour. The next draft that went came form New Zealand directly and the lower ranks were all new soldiers, volunteers, as the Army had released most of the wartime soldiers by then.
So if he was in the second draft that replaced the first draft, he (probably) volunteered.
I interviewed a veteran who was in that volunteer draft, they went up on the inter-island ferry Wahine, struck rocks on the way and the ship sank. No-one died though and they were all rescued. A bit of a disater for the ferry company.
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Post by sprjock on Jan 11, 2013 23:26:45 GMT 12
"Between 1939 and 1945 almost 16,000 Mâori volunteered for war service, out of a total population of fewer than 100,000." "Volunteered' of course does not necessarily equate with 'served' in some cases. There will have been those who volunteered but were turned down for service for medical reasons, etc. Also does this volunteer figure also include those who applied to join the Home Guard? Errol Errol , Volunteer means served of their own volition as opposed to conscripted . Just the same as how the word is used for anyone else . I have never seen a data base of those who were turned down . Have you ? As to your Home Guard question . Its a while since I read it . What did the article say when you followed the link and read it ? cheers , Jock |
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Post by sprjock on Jan 11, 2013 23:32:01 GMT 12
I interviewed a veteran who was in that volunteer draft, they went up on the inter-island ferry Wahine, struck rocks on the way and the ship sank. No-one died though and they were all rescued. A bit of a disater for the ferry company. So then the silly buggas put another ship called Wahine on the same route ..... 'Struth |
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Post by errolmartyn on Jan 12, 2013 9:55:35 GMT 12
Jock,
"Volunteer means served"
At the risk of repeating myself, it does not.
The words have quite different meanings.
One can volunteer to serve and actually serve.
One can also volunteer to serve but not actually get to serve.
Errol
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Post by sprjock on Jan 12, 2013 13:04:17 GMT 12
For those who missed it .....
Until evidence proves otherwise ,
In the context of this subject , Volunteers are those who served in the services voluntarily .
And that includes Maori .
If anyone has an Official list of those who were rejected for military service during WW2 , could they produce it please .
And Maori means a person who has a Maori ancestor.
Not the nasty racist definition that some have ,
that 'full blooded Maori are the only ones who are Maori and they died out long long ago ' type of definition
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 12, 2013 13:59:46 GMT 12
There will have been records of those people (anyone) who volunteered for service and were turned down for medical reasons or due to criminal convictions or any other reason.
There will also have been records of those who were drafted and appealled the draft due to their religion, political views, a medical condition, the status of their civilian employment and other reasons too. These seem to have always been reported in the local newspapers when a draftee appealled, often the appeal was granted and instead of going into the Army they would be directed to join the Home Guard - so not all Home Guards were volunteers although the majority were. This is why I asked if Maori were exempt from the draft, perhaps it was a genuine reason with which to appeal to the Appeals Board? Just wondering.
For example the Tainui tribe apparently refused to allow its members of the tribe to join the military, So if any of them had their name come up in the ballot to be drafted, did they have the right to appeal simply because of their ancestry?
I doubt anyone has taken the time (and it would be a LOT of time) to research and collate the finer details of such lists as those who volunteered and never served, but as Errol rightly points out, not everyone who volunteered actually went on to serve (Maori or otherwise); and not everyone who was drafted did either for various reasons. Like everything in historical research there are grey areas, and I think it is right to be cautious over the figures.
It's quite possible the website meant that around 16,000 Maori served their country in military and home defence units overseas and at home, and all happened to be volunteers, but the site just did not word it without the ambiguity that Errol points out. No-one is saying the figure is blatantly wrong, as such.
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