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Post by scorpiomikey on Nov 3, 2011 8:06:30 GMT 12
'''''''''''' theres a photo out there of a P-40 flying VERY low in front of some hangars at i believe ohakea, or wigram. Apparently this was my pop after it was discovered he was too young to fly, but before he was grounded. ''''''''' '''''' The only times ive seen him get angry in 25 years was when we tried to get him to talk about his air force days. '''''''' I think Pop may be a legend in his own family. Your opening statement had me thinking your old fella was a pilot who was removed from training after his true age had been revealed. You seem to think he was grounded which implies you must have been thinking he was in an aircrew trade. You then go on to say that he was possibly a radio operator in Avengers. Your dad was in the RNZAF and he would have met people that served during the same period as your pop. Perhaps you should be asking more questions of your father, I am sure he will know exactly what his father did during the war. Your father couldn't even give you the correct spelling of his father's name....you have to doubt the other 'facts' he has provided also. I think there is a very good yarn or bar story in the mix there somewhere. Many of the guys reading this did time in the mob and we know exactly how it works... Ask your old man and spare Pop any further embarrassment. I have doubts about some of the things my father says for very good reason. I wont go in to it as he sometimes reads these forums. As for pops middle name. It was my great grandfather who spelled it wrong. It is actually Archiable. As i said earlier im going by what ive been told by other people whos memories may not have been what they once were. Ever since i can remember ive been told he signed up to the RNZAF as a pilot and was shifted to other roles after it was discovered he was too young. I was told he was found out after a letter was sent to his next of kin to advise of an overseas posting at which point his mother wrote back advising them he was too young. I dont know how true this was. After he was reassigned he became a wireless operator (Me saying radio operator was my screw up, didnt realise there was a difference between wireless operator and radio operator) The back seat story was from an old guy dad met while in the airforce. This may very well have been a harvard, i dont know. It may have been something else entirely.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 3, 2011 8:26:18 GMT 12
Perhaps the photo shows an Avenger, if he was a Wireless Op in them. They were certainly based at Ohakea in 1945. By then the Avenger squadrons had disbanded but they were used by other units as target tugs, etc.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 3, 2011 9:41:14 GMT 12
If we had the right fellows schooling history then he would have been born in 1926. You must know when your Pop was born... you mentioned he is in his mid 80's so 66 years ago That makes him almost 19 when he enlisted. You must have had doubts about the story at that point surely. As for the Air Force discovering his true age after selection and attestation well.... I am not sure what you know about recruitment but it is a little more involved than what some of the movies depict. Falsifying records would mean changing birth certificate, school records and the works. Naturally the military would view this as a crime and act accordingly, a remuster may not be an option. So another small doubt in the story. And now you say that his mother contacted them, - holy cow the postage to and fro would have taken longer than his service career. He was only in for two minutes. And why they would want to post a Wireless operator with no experience overseas after the war is beyond me also. Have another think about why Pops is keeping mum about his wartime history. There is a chap just out of shot on the right.... there is a rumour that he was RNZAF.. If we can just find the uncropped version you may find that is was indeed Pop.
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Post by scorpiomikey on Nov 3, 2011 12:08:58 GMT 12
After pressing other family members for information. And talking to my dad at lunch today. I have a wee development in the story. Turns out the low flying p-40 was mixed stories. The P-40 in question was one that flew between the hangars, pop wasnt in it, he was on the ground and witnessed it. The photo dad remembers (which he found in his personal collection last night) is a target tug avenger of 42 sqn. Im not sure how these got mixed up as its a very brightly painted avenger. And its not even in flight. This is another photo at a different angle. Dad was told while he was in the service that the shadowy face just visible in the wireless seat is my pop. Pop however has denied this. Can anyone confirm who that is? Photo comes from here. www.helmo.gr/index.php?option=com_deeppockets&task=catContShow&cat=24&id=966&Itemid=35
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 3, 2011 12:47:02 GMT 12
If we had the right fellows schooling history then he would have been born in 1926. You must know when your Pop was born... you mentioned he is in his mid 80's so 66 years ago That makes him almost 19 when he enlisted. Which makes him not under-age at all. Many guys were flying in the RNZAF at that age, age limit was 18 to 31 to join as aircrew. The thing was they just needed their parent's consent if they wanted to go overseas if under 21. At that late stage of the war however, it would have been pretty irrelavent as they were not sending untrained men overseas, as you say.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 3, 2011 12:50:05 GMT 12
I witnessed that aircraft... it was a Mirage, not a P40. It was Ohakea and I think your father may have been there, - not your Pop. Others here would have seen it also, actually I had a really good pic taken by Milly, I think it was. I gave it to the pilot when I saw him in Aussie a few years later. I also found the pic of the RNZAF chappy at the surrender..... it was not your Pop there either I'm afraid. www.nzetc.org/etexts/WH2AirF/WH2AirFP035a.jpg
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 3, 2011 13:14:55 GMT 12
I suspect that the Mirage was not the firstaircraft to fly between the Ohakea hangars. There is plenty of room to get through. I have heard a Harvard flew knife-edge between two hangars at Wigram during the war, when Harewood made a mock attack on Wigram to test their air raid defences.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 3, 2011 13:51:34 GMT 12
oh.. well there we go Dave. Pop was at Harewood. He may have been the Wireless Operator in the back of that one. The story did say either Wigram or Ohakea.
You may have solved this one for us... and even the dates tie up.... provided it was towards the end of the Pacific War ( when Japan was far from a threat any longer).
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 3, 2011 15:34:52 GMT 12
My story was from 1942 when the country was newly in the grip of fear of the Japanese invasion. It's in one of the autobiographies but I can't recall who wrote it.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 3, 2011 18:29:40 GMT 12
Oh, so perhaps the datesdon't tie up so well at all then. A little like the target towing Avengers being modified in November 1949. They were not painted for the Topdressing trials of late 1948, so the bright paint scheme was introduced for the target towing presumably. That makes the photo of 'Pop' sitting in the back about late 1949 or later. Indeed the caption below the pic says it was in the 1950's. www.helmo.gr/gallery2/d/39070-1/4.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=TMP_SESSION_ID_DI_NOISSES_PMTMy eyesight has the bloke in the back wearing a SD cap, I may be wrong on that one though. Nevertheless it has to be taken in 1950 or a little later, - some 4 years after Pop left the mob. Someone in the family has been shooting a line Mikey..... I think your father has been taking the mickey out of his old man and you have come to accept some of the banter. It would be interesting to find out what Pop did get up to during his time but I am pretty sure it would have been a lot of training followed by some pretty mundane stuff. It is a period we do not get to hear much about really. Whether it was depressing or exciting I am not sure. I am sure it was a period of much downscaling though, something I never enjoy. Ooops And then I came upon this..... www.library.mstn.govt.nz/history/images/AviationAvenger.jpg[/img] www.library.mstn.govt.nz/history/images/AviationAvenger.jpg
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 3, 2011 19:39:17 GMT 12
There was at least one Avenger based at Ardmore in 1945 in the yellow and black striped 'bumblebee' scheme, I have seen a photo of some Corsair pilots (I think it was), and the Avenger is in the bacKground. I am trying to recall where I have seen that photo, I have seen it in two different sources.
I would agree the back seat guy is wearing an officer's cap. he's in the Navigator's position though. The WOp/AG sat in the rear.
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Post by scorpiomikey on Nov 4, 2011 8:06:08 GMT 12
Now im getting really confused, i thought avengers only had a crew of 3? Pilot. Wireless/Gunner. Ball gunner.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 4, 2011 10:42:31 GMT 12
They had a crew of three, a pilot, a navigator (in the centre cockpit) and a Wireless Operator/Air Gunner in the back. The WOp/AG could climb into the turret (not a "ball gun") and climb down into the main fuselage which is HUGE inside and had the wireless equipment below. The Avengers were often used to transport others and a whole RNZAF rugby team was carried in that back space on at least one occasion.
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Post by McFly on Nov 4, 2011 11:47:46 GMT 12
Some photos of the Avenger (NZ2503) referenced in the earlier posts while in RNZAF service including one in the 'bumblebee' scheme. Grumman TBF Avenger NZ2503 and the Royal New Zealand Air Force Band on a street parade during Air Force Week. Auckland. Circa 1944. Men loading super-phosphate into the hopper for the Aerial topdressing trials at Masterton Aerodrome. Avenger NZ2503 behind. 5 May 1949 Air to air of three Grumman Avengers in formation over the Manawatu area. L-R: NZ2527, NZ2503, NZ2504. Circa 1954 (Photos RNZAF Museum)
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Post by angelsonefive on Nov 4, 2011 15:06:15 GMT 12
Does anyone know what the crewing arrangements were for the TT Avengers?
Navigator hardly required in a flight from, say, Ohakea to Waiouru.
VHF R/T adequate for most TT tasks I would think, so no wireless operator then ?
Pilot and winch operator only ?
And were the winch operators drawn from the ground staff ?
Or was it a pilot only operation ?
I think some Mustangs were used for high speed TT work, so pilot only seems to be feasible.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 4, 2011 15:48:10 GMT 12
I know on the Vildebeest/Vincent tugs it was a pilot and a winch operator. I think they used the same winch system, initially at least.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 8, 2011 10:43:55 GMT 12
Watched a DVD last night with some Avenger action in it. www.imdb.com/title/tt0037466/Wing and a Prayer (1944) '''''''''''''''' and the scenes of TBFs or TBMs landing and taking off are exciting to watch. These were big airplanes with 3-man crews and pretty cozy inside. '''''''''''''
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 8, 2011 11:01:23 GMT 12
Wing And A Prayer is a great film. One of my favourite WWII-made US films.
Another great US carrier film, which is real, a coloured documentary, is The Fighting Lady. It's all on Youtube to watch.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 14, 2011 12:06:56 GMT 12
We have had a little thread drift and I am curious as to how Mike is getting on with his Pop.
I suggested you could be asking more questions of your father Mike.
Has he helped out at all with his own service record and then perhaps a little about how the stories of your Pop came into being ? Your Pop was only in for a very short period and at a time when the RNZAF would have been downsizing. I think given the trade Errol unearthed (Aircrafthand) and the era he would not have done too much earth shattering stuff. He will have stories obviously, 99% of the time in the mob is great. Much is forgotten the morning after but some of the memories are with you for life. Your father will have heard the stories from your Pop and they will still be fresh in his mind. The two of you may be able to jog the old fellows memories. Obviously he will get upset if you hit him with the embellished tales so you really need to keep to the factual versions.
I hope you get some good gen from him. All the best with it.
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Post by scorpiomikey on Nov 22, 2011 13:00:14 GMT 12
Yeah no more progress. Spoken to dad several times and all the stories that he was told about "His old man" seem to be tall tails or downright fibs. It seems pop made an impression while he was in with the guys he served with, but didn't appear to actually do anything that significant. Joined in 45, left in 46. in for less than a year. Seems ill get more stories about his days as a postman than the airforce. But thats ok, im secure in the knowledge that my family had 2 generations in the force and generation 3 (me and my sister) are both airforce brats lol. Ill always look skyward at the sound of an aircraft. Thanks for all the help guys, but at this stage im calling this one closed.
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