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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 30, 2011 10:23:57 GMT 12
I have not seen this topic featured here and I am sure a few of us would be interested. The new look Wigram is basically complete and of course so have most of our landmarks disappeared. Can someone help out with a comparison of how the Base layout compares with the new street structure. I am thinking of a side-by-side or overlay type thing. Many of us can remember Wigram of the 70's and '80's...... but where it the Institute now? or the NAAFI and other landmarks. I saw comment about Joe Burns Place being near them but I am not too sure. If the oval is unchanged then his street may run across the WO and SNCO Mess area. I know some of the readers here are very good with Photoshop and the like. I haven't even seen a good map of the Base layout recently. There must be any number of them getting about though. My Induction Guide had a very good one in it. Well there we are guys, - a challenge. maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=joe+burns+pl+wigram+christchurch&aq=&sll=37.90517,-79.742854&sspn=10.06592,21.643066&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Joe+Burns+Pl,+Hornby,+Christchurch+8042,+Canterbury,+New+Zealand&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A&ved=0CBAQpQY&sa=X&ei=Xl7VTu2RI6LomAWO9aysAw |
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Post by phil on Nov 30, 2011 10:38:06 GMT 12
Your link takes me to somewhere in Tennessee?
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 30, 2011 10:44:38 GMT 12
Yes Phil, it is a Google default. I tried to rectify it. It should be better now.
Hopefully it should be pointing to a site about 8Km South West of Christchurch city.
Either that or Ngai Tahu have done a swifty with the Yanks..... hmmm, do they need another London Bridge ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2011 17:11:44 GMT 12
All the area where the Base Institute, Cafe and Baggies, Wet Canteen, Airmens Mess, No. 2 Officer's Mess etc was demolished, the roads ripped up and new roads laid, not necessarily in the same place. The road that used to do a dogleg alongside the sports fields past the front of No. 2 O's mess was removed and a new straightened one put in that went from the Harvard Lane intersection straight to the Harvard Club. The only recognisable roads now are the one round the outside by the hangars, the one that No's 1 O's Mess is on, the one where the MQ houses were, and the area where A and B Block still stand, whereas Trigg, Trent, Ward and Frances Briars were all pulled down. The Gym area remains the same but really run down badly.
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Post by baronbeeza on Nov 30, 2011 17:45:31 GMT 12
Thanks Dave, I can see now that the new road that should have run across the front of No 2 Officers' Mess has been hacked out of the Oval.
That would leave Joe Burns Place smack in the middle of the area you describe. It would be about where the Wet Canteen and SNCO's Mess used to be.
I can remember Joe retiring in about 1984, possibly a touch earlier. I had a go at writing his leaving testimonial but my boss had been a keen rugby player and he made it quite clear he wanted to be involved.
I just wondered if the residents of that Place know who Joe was.
I think he had a complicated background. I remember him being in the Army during WWII and getting sunk off Crete.
Does the Museum have a history of that identity ?
Dave Crooks was an Air Officer but in Joe's mind he was still a Cadet..... yep, - he got the ' G'day Son ' treatment as well.
I get to Wigram about once a week and I have increasing difficulties getting my bearings.
Spitfire Place now has housing where CTS once stood.
To make it worse, the ground under 6 and 7 Hangars has been developed.
Does anyone have a good map of the base as it was it the heyday ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 30, 2011 18:11:15 GMT 12
I have that Induction Guide somewhere, but I don't know where I put it. Maybe someone else has one?
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Post by camtech on Nov 30, 2011 18:55:30 GMT 12
It has certainly changed since I retired in 1987. The house I lived in, on the corner of Springs Rd and Dufek Cres is still there, looking very original.
The old CTS building opposite 7 Hangar is the old Instrument and Electrical Training Flight, and if I looked long enough I would be able to work out were most buildings were.
More changes afoot with the proposed development of the Air Force Museum due to be announced today, I believe.
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Post by John L on Nov 30, 2011 20:20:39 GMT 12
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Post by ngatimozart on Dec 1, 2011 18:44:03 GMT 12
I'll have a hunt around and see if I can find any old maps of Wigram online. If I can find one I can overlay it in a a GIS against a modern amp of Wigram and highlight te original base. Actually an aerial photo is just as good as long as I can georeference it. I have some other stuff on at the moment but will get to it.
Yes I remember Joe quite well.
Also I am member of Christchurch RSA and I note that in its last post section that Wg Cdr CW Rudd RNZAF and Sqn Ldr AD Haggitt RNZAF have passed away recently. I am unsure of the ranks but they are as I remember them when I was in.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 1, 2011 19:08:27 GMT 12
Who exactly was this Joe Burns chap? I heard he ran the tea wagon or somehting but don't know much more.
Ngatimozart see the Death Notice and Obit section in the general Board here, both of those former officers were listed, among too many others. I believe from memory that Colin Rudd was a Group Captain.
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 1, 2011 19:14:19 GMT 12
That will be great if you can manage that. Thanks a lot.
I did look online but not see a Base map as such. I think some of the guys here will soon produce one from somewhere though.
Colin Rudd retired from the Rank of Gp Capt and OC Base Wigram. Don Haggitt was my ATC Liaison chappy and was possibly a Sgt, I can remember him as a F/Sgt. By the time I got around to joining up he was commissioned.
Shorty would have written about them both here a few weeks ago.
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 1, 2011 19:27:45 GMT 12
I am not sure where to start with the Joe Burns story Dave.
His son Phillip had some aircraft on loan to the museum in the early days so some may know Phillip from there.
Joe was a Serviceman but would have been a career LAC I am guessing. In my day he was an aircraft hand and did the jobs for NATTS out of 6 Hangar at the time of his retirement.
He would have loved it, he got to cycle about Base doing the mail runs, doing whatever chores the guys wanted done basically. He was replaced by Ross Gibson who had graduated from the Camp Store.
He had an army background but very few would have known that. He was a Batman in one of the Officer's Messes. He knew every senior officer and vice-versa. I am thinking he must have been in 2 Mess in the early to mid-Fifties. Perhaps 1 Mess a little later.
I did read his PF and I know it was one of the larger ones. I just wish I could remember more of it.
I would be interested in the story as to how the street was named after him. It really does seem that the street runs around where Joe basically spent his RNZAF career.
He was treated a little like a living mascot towards the end of his service. The museum surely must have some biographical details.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 1, 2011 19:39:43 GMT 12
Cheers. Sounds like an interesting guy.
In my time which was sadly to see the demise of our neighbours NATTS the GSH there through 1991-92 was GSH Jim Coleman, who was a really great old chap. I think from memory he'd served in the RNZAF in WWII and simply stayed in. Everyone seemed to know him and like him. I recall he had a number of great little schemes on the go to raise funds for the NATTS social club. Bloody great guy. I guess he's probably no longer with us now.
The other GSH I really liked to visit and chat with was GSH Laurie Sadler, worked in Camp Pack Up at Wigram. He had been in the SAS in Vietnam and was a really cool guy.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 1, 2011 20:08:33 GMT 12
Here is what Wigram looked like in 1942:  And more recently, but before the base closed:  The photos are Air Force Musuem of New Zealand, and come from Paul Harrison's book on Wigram. |
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Post by ngatimozart on Dec 2, 2011 18:30:16 GMT 12
Thanks. I live in Christchurch so I'll contact the Museum. Joe Burns was a true blue character and he drank in the airmens club most nights & I was there most nights in various stages of sobriety or more commonly lack of it. He also was a passionate supporter of the Base rugby team and there wasn't a scheme or scam that Joe didn't know of. I can still see him clear as a bell 30 years later. My last posting to Wigram ended in 1979. In all the time I knew him I cannot remember him calling any officer sir. It was either boy, or name or nickname and I would think that he would have known every RNZAF officer, especially te senior ones. I have good memories of Joe.
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Post by camtech on Dec 4, 2011 20:07:31 GMT 12
Yes, old Joe was one of the real characters of this world. He was a regular in the airmens club, and regularly enjoyed his fair share of the brown frothy stuff.
His push bike would end up in trees, on the roof or in other strange places, but by 10 each morning he would be back on it.
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Post by ngatimozart on Dec 6, 2011 14:08:54 GMT 12
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Post by flyjoe180 on Dec 6, 2011 14:27:40 GMT 12
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Post by oj on Dec 26, 2011 20:20:53 GMT 12
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Post by baronbeeza on Jan 3, 2012 18:47:43 GMT 12
 Okay, this photo shows the situation. It is dated late 2004 and is ideal. We can see the two Places. The top one, on the left side, is Joe Burns Place. The other leading around to the back of CTS is Spitfire Place. Given that a chunk of the Oval was carved away for the new road we can now see that Joe Burns Place does indeed run right through where No 2 Mess and the WO and SNCO's Mess used to stand. Spitfire Place is now fully developed and the scene is changing all the time. Why couldn't they have left the runway there  ?? |
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