Cost cutting could silence Defence Force bands

[baronbeeza]

I am still with Dave. I thought we would see the Base band once or twice a year.
I cannot see how doing away with them can save so much money.
Where has all this money been going the past few decades ?

I am sure you could hire a band for a Base parade, it is only a few practises and a 2 hour main event. Just a dozen or so tunes, and all will be well known to any musician.
(Says he who is tone deaf and could not play a single note).

Does the band need to be in RNZAF uniform for Base parades in a peace-time military.

We have the Central band for the high profile occasions.

The initial news report said that it was the Territorials that were loosing their bandsmen.. not the case it would appear.

Just how active is the Regular membership of a present-day Base band ? I knew Graeme Rodger and Don Haggitt were members back in the day.

We seem to have no shortage of sportsmen in the Services, surely some must prefer something a little less energetic.

[adzze]

I tend to agree with Dave. My late father was a former President of the NZ Army Band, but neither I (nor even my mother) has heard of the Territorial bands. I think a band each for the 3 branches of the NZDF is probably enough for its size.

[30sqnatc]

Jan 28, 2012 7:38:25 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Luke, you have missed my point. I know the article says the base bands are under threat but I am saying scrap the lot. $5.9 million is wasted money on mere bands, which add nothing to defence apart from a bit of puffery around Wellington ceremonies..........
The money can be spent better on people who actually make a difference. No offence meant to the band members, but they simply don't.

I have abridged the quote of Daves above.

It's interesting to compare the reactions in this thread and the one on the Red Checkers incident so to engender some discussion here goes.

On the Red Checkers thread:

"This is sad news for the RNZAF, cancelling one of their premium displays at one of the three big airshows in their big anniversary year"

and

"Pretty poor form considering it's the premier marketing tool for the RNZAF."

Spinning the words together - it just an aerobatics team which add nothing to defence but a bit of puffery at air shows. The money can be spent better on flying hours (or some real capability) that actually makes a difference. No offence meant to the team members, but their displays simply don't.

Is the Red Checkers really the premier marketing tool for the RNZAF? Given the sort of publicity they have recently been generating I actually think they are eroding the good things the real operational side of the force is achieving.

Paul

[corsair67]

I thought the marketing 'jingle' "Step Up" was the RNZAF's premier marketing tool? ;D

Anyway, who needs a band when you can just put on a cd!

[ngatimozart]

When I was in we were told that in wartime bandsmen would become medical orderlies. I've been on parade with base bands, the RNZAF Base Te Rapa Pipe Band, the RNZN band, a band of the Royal Marines and cd's. out of all of them the TeRapa Pipe band, The RNZN band and the Royal Marines band stand out because they were different. The pipes, well marching to skirl of bag pipes, thats just something neat. The other two were on big occasions and we had to alter our cadence for the Royal Marines because theirs is 116 steps per minute.

I don't fully agree with Dave but yes get rid of all bar the NZ Army Band, The RNZN Band and the Central Band of the RNZAF. The services do need a band for big ceremonial occasions, but for run of the millbase parades, no a recording will do.

[flyjoe180]

To be honest $900k is more than I expected them to be saving.

[Dave Homewood]

Jan 28, 2012 16:29:42 GMT 12 30sqnatc said:

Jan 28, 2012 7:38:25 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Luke, you have missed my point. I know the article says the base bands are under threat but I am saying scrap the lot. $5.9 million is wasted money on mere bands, which add nothing to defence apart from a bit of puffery around Wellington ceremonies..........
The money can be spent better on people who actually make a difference. No offence meant to the band members, but they simply don't.

I have abridged the quote of Daves above.

It's interesting to compare the reactions in this thread and the one on the Red Checkers incident so to engender some discussion here goes.

On the Red Checkers thread:

"This is sad news for the RNZAF, cancelling one of their premium displays at one of the three big airshows in their big anniversary year"

and

"Pretty poor form considering it's the premier marketing tool for the RNZAF."

Spinning the words together - it just an aerobatics team which add nothing to defence but a bit of puffery at air shows. The money can be spent better on flying hours (or some real capability) that actually makes a difference. No offence meant to the team members, but their displays simply don't.

Is the Red Checkers really the premier marketing tool for the RNZAF? Given the sort of publicity they have recently been generating I actually think they are eroding the good things the real operational side of the force is achieving.

Paul

Paul, firstly I never made that statement about any decision being "poor" by the RNZAF over the team. I want it clear that that is not my words.

Secondly the Red Checkers is not just an aerobatic team. It is a group of the RNZAF's most highly skilled pilots, showing their skills off to the public. The displays they do represent actual operational flying skills that are used in the RNZAF frontline. And they are the instructors and the ones who train and monitor the instructors.

Try to put the band into the front line in any major NZDF action from a war to a relief operation to a search and rescue, etc, I doubt they will amount to much. Do the same with the Red Checkers pilots and they will do the professional flying job that they are trained to do.

Your analysis holds no water as far as I am concerned. The $5.9 million per annum bands do nothing for NZDF that a $50 CD player connected to a sound system can't do.

[Dave Homewood]

I still want to know how the hell ten bands can cost $5.9 million per year, especially when nine of them are part timers. It just doesn't seem right. In all the other pipe and brass bands in the country they operate on the annual subs their members pay - which won't amount to $590,000 p/a I'm sure. Someone has been milking it.

[Dave Homewood]

And another thing Paul, the Red Checkers are seen by well over 100,000 people per year each year I'd estimate at airshows and displays around NZ. But with most of these bands even the serving and ex-service people don't seem to know they existed. Hardly cutting edge in the publicity department.

[luke6745]

Jan 28, 2012 19:41:57 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I still want to know how the hell ten bands can cost $5.9 million per year, especially when nine of them are part timers. It just doesn't seem right. In all the other pipe and brass bands in the country they operate on the annual subs their members pay - which won't amount to $590,000 p/a I'm sure. Someone has been milking it.

I think it might be being spent on foreign tattoos (which is something they shouldn't be spending cash on when bands are being cut).

[luke6745]

Jan 28, 2012 19:37:08 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Try to put the band into the front line in any major NZDF action from a war to a relief operation to a search and rescue, etc, I doubt they will amount to much. Do the same with the Red Checkers pilots and they will do the professional flying job that they are trained to do.

I have to disagree with you on that one. The Royal Marines bandsmen are sent to the front line in Afghanistan as stretcher bearers and the Drums Corps drummers of the Coldstream, Grenadier, Scots, Irish and Welsh Guards are all serving guardsmen. Some of the bandsmen are also attached to those regiments as machine gunners.

In my opinion, the TF bandsmen should also serve as riflemen or in another capacity as well. Of course it's a little more difficult to do that sort of thing with the air force and navy.

[baronbeeza]

I am still with Dave...
I am of the understanding that the Central RNZAF Band is made up of Territorial members also. Basically from music schools etc about Wellington. They are given a uniform and with it the right to travel on service aircraft,
The Base band on the other hand was just like a sports club, or at least I imagined.
I sat on the Base Welfare Committee for a couple of years and I can't remember hearing much about them. The sports clubs all lined up looking for any funding we could possibly squirt their directions.

Is it possible the bands were funded directly from somewhere else ?

www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/band/default.htm

So we have three Central bands, one for each Service... and then a variety of Base or Unit bands. Obviously the Main band would get paid for their Territorial time....... do the Base bands have Territorial members also ? And do they get paid also ?

www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/band/default.htm

[Dave Homewood]

Luke, what have those UK bands got to do with NZ and the current discussion? Currently these bands are draining millions in taxpayer and NZDF money. Yet other service personnel have lost their jobs in cost cutting, many others have been civilianised against their will, a prime Defence land has been sold off to booster the coffers. The have civilianised many whole trades, other trades have totally disappeared. They fly with leased aeroplanes because they cannot afford to own the fleets and maintain them any more. Yet the bands play on.

It simply seems bloody wrong.

You might say $5.9 million is small change, think of it in a ten year block - $59 million - and some of these bands have been around 70 or 80 years. Hmmm.

[luke6745]

Jan 28, 2012 20:20:12 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Luke, what have those UK bands got to do with NZ and the current discussion? Currently these bands are draining millions in taxpayer and NZDF money. Yet other service personnel have lost their jobs in cost cutting, many others have been civilianised against their will, a prime Defence land has been sold off to booster the coffers. The have civilianised many whole trades, other trades have totally disappeared. They fly with leased aeroplanes because they cannot afford to own the fleets and maintain them any more. Yet the bands play on.

It simply seems bloody wrong.

You might say $5.9 million is small change, think of it in a ten year block - $59 million - and some of these bands have been around 70 or 80 years. Hmmm.

I'm trying to draw a comparison. Those drummers are serving guardsmen but give up their spare time to be musicians as well. Why can't that work here? I'm also trying to think of a way that we can save money without cutting the bands. And also that they aren't just bandsmen and they can put themselves to use doing something on the front line.

I do understand where you are coming from, Dave, but it's clear we don't see eye-to-eye on this issue. And I think it's time we agreed to disagree because I don't want to carry on forever arguing the same points over and over.

[Dave Homewood]

You are right that it's time to leave this. I have made my point.

[corsair67]

Anyway, who seriously believes any money saved will actually go back into frontline units?

I would almost guarantee that it'd be redirected into funding more shiny-bum positions at Defence HQ.

[Dave Homewood]

You make a very good point Craig, sadly.