Canberra replacement choice

[hairy]

The Defence department and the RNZAF wanted the F-111 the same as the RAAF had just ordered, the F-4C was the second choice and the Skyhawk was their last choice.

Remember what the Canberras role was when voting.

[Dave Homewood]

Wow, I had heard that the RNZAF preferred the Phantom, I never knew all these had been considered and that the Skyhawk was last choice. I didn't know they preferred the F111 either.

I don't think I know enough about all these types to make a choice. I cannot think of anything but the Skyhawk in RNZAF service. Very interesting question though. Can you imagine Kiwi Red with F111's or Corsair II's? I can't.

Skyhawks all the way...

[hairy]

admin said:

Can you imagine Kiwi Red with F111's or Corsair II's? I can't.

Skyhawks all the way...

Bear in mind the Canberra was a bomber supported by Vampire fighters, so can you imagine if the bomber replacement was say the F-111 what could have been the fighter replacement........................

[hairy]

admin said:

Skyhawks all the way...

........vote for it then ;D

[Dave Homewood]

OK I did.

I guess if the F111's had been bought, then it would have changed the purchase of the Strikemasters to something more suited for both fighter and trainer role (much like the Maachis and the Vampires which did both). I'm not sure though.

[corsair67]

Was the F-4E considered, or only the F-4C? The F-4E would have covered the fighter-bomber role perfectly, if it'd been chosen.

[turboNZ]

I reckon the A-6 would have been better as it has more load carrying capability and is probably not much slower than an A-4

[Dave Homewood]

Maybe so Chris, but could the RNZAF have afforded more load to carry? We had little in the way of ordnance in any case compared with other air forces.

[steve]

As a young fella and mad on the airforce I followed this very closely cutting out all the newspaper clippings etc. Yeap the f111 and the phantom were on the dream list however the final choice that went before cabinet was the F5 and A4. There was a lot of discussion at the time that the a4 was not supersonic which was a big deal in the public mind then. The a4 was a great choice and affordable....Interesting reading cabinet notes on how they choose the quanity of a4s was it 12 or 14 ...i forget...howver the Minister of defence recommended what the airforce wanted 18 i believe and the PM (kiwi keith Holyoake) just came up with a number... .of the top of his head ..ie 12 or was it 14 and said " Tell them they make do with that!)

[Dave Homewood]

Were the public all for supersonic because it sounded good? Or were they against because of the noise and the breaking of windows?

[steve]

Yes the public was all for supersonic...they thought that the faster the plane the quicker the victory...i thought the same as a kid...I didn.t understand that suupersonic speeds were only based on afterburner etc and in the air/ground support role it was not the big deal

[corsair67]

Steve, you and the general public certainly weren't the only ones who thought that supersonic was the bee's knees. Unfortunately many senior USAF officers thought the same in the 1950s and early-1960s - until the USAF became bogged down in Vietnam! They soon realised that their shiny super-fast jets were gas guzzlers that couldn't loiter above the battlefield long enough to be of much use to troops on the ground.

Hence the 1940s-designed A1 Skyraider coming into own again when so many thought they were well and truly past it. What a beautiful machine!

[phil82]

The RNZAF were very happy with the Canberra, but knew it had to be replaced by the end of the decade because it lacked sophisticated aids and weaponry. The then CAS , AVM Morrison, [Judy Bailey's father by the way!], recommended the F111, and failing that, the Phantom. The list also included the F5, Mirage111, Mirage 5, the A7 Corsair, the A6 Attacker, and the last on the list, the A4! The F111/s would have been a disaster. They were hugely expensive, and untried. The RAF cancelled its order due to delays, and the RAAF had such a huge wait it operated a loaned set of Phantoms for a while. Morrison insisted on the F11 and was publicly rebuked for his comments. Some of the RNZAF Canberras are still in service by the way, in the Indian Air Force!

[steve]

Phil82 ...quite right...your memory is good. AVM Morrison was really a great air chief of our air force. I wish he was around 5 years a go as CAS. I understand he really pushed hard for the modernisation of our small air arm and was instrumental for the P3s c130s etc and many other changes that made us a modern pacific rim air force. However as we all know these days the political leadership appears to be be much more non aligned to traditional allies (mildly) and hence the degraded ability of our air "corps" to S&R and transport. Crazy!

[phil82]

You've got to remember that Helen Clark marched in a protest at the purchase of the Skyhawks; and she has a long memory! However, I happen to know that the CAS at the time the decision was made to remove the Air Combat wing was powerless to change it because of inter-service rivalry which had Helen's ear! Had he resigned in protest, they would simply have replaced him and carried on.The end result was the NZ Army got a very expensive target in which to transport troops, and some pretty blatant lies were told about how they were to be paid for. The RNZAF not only lost the physical side, the aircraft themselves, but all of the infrastructure and experience that is accumulated over many years.The RAF saved millions of pounds by gaining some very experienced pilots, as did the Skippies over the ditch.They also gained a lot of the lineys! You can't blame the Aussies or the Poms for taking advantage of the situation; we are currently doing exactly the same in recruiting RAF people!