What DON'T you like about airshows??

[Peter Lewis]

Feb 17, 2012 15:23:17 GMT 12 ErrolC said:

Was this in NZ?

At Taupo, some years ago.

It's a standard ploy at food-and -wine shows, in my experience, which may be fair enough as that is what you are there for.
But not at air shows.

[fwx]

SPECIAL MESSAGE TO AIRSHOW ORGANISERS READING THIS THREAD:

DO NOT REMOVE THE DOGFIGHT / MOCK BATTLE FINALE FROM YOUR PROGRAMME!!

Anyone here saying they are tired of, or bored with, the traditional warbirds airshow finale, should urgently check their own pulse ....

[corsairarm]

This year was the first Tauranga airshow I have been to and I was very impressed with getting in by car and and parking which was quite close. Getting out was just as impressive and was certainly alot better than the last Whenuapai airshow where we didn't get out of the car park for 2 hours and then only being allowed to exit through the base.
Where my mate and I stood was by the Air force helicopters there was no PA system but maybe that was a blessing as the person they had on at the beginning of the day was not the best.
I am finding that displays in NZ, even though I enjoy them, pale in comparison to overseas displays I have been to, admittedly in the late 70's i.e. CAF in Texas. Shuttleworth, Duxford and Hanover in Germany.
Don't get me wrong but I do find the displays out here are getting to be the same old, same old although I do try and still go to see what's new in the way of warbirds. I am hoping to go to Omaka next year as it is a unique airshow with the WW1 aircraft. I don't bother with Wanaka anymore due , mainly to cost, and I fell that it's not what it used to be. I mean it's mid Feb and they are still confirming aircraft!! I would now only make the effort to go if there was something decent coming from overseas. Warbirds not jets.
I personally think that Auckland is way overdue for a major Airshow and I am a bit disappointed that the RNZAF 75th show is not in Auckland. They would get a much bigger crowd.
I also go to airshows to spend money on aviation related stuff like caps, tea shirts and books. Unfortunately there is not alot of choice and some of the designs on caps and t shirts are boring and don't feature an aircraft and then some of them are too expensive. I work for NZ largest Safety company and we sell alot of these items and have our own embroidery dept so I do know what it cost.

[johnnyfalcon]

OK. So how much do airshow displays contribute to keeping display aircraft in NZ? I can remember every airshow I attended growing up. A staple of aero-club types, ag display, a Pitts, and some RNZAF to finish, was the diet. The first time I saw a Mustang I was 19 at Palmerston North, 1985. As I watched ZK-TAF takeoff I was transfixed by two things: 1) The HUGE propeller circle and 2) THE NOISE!! As TT Bland climbed away to the West I was mesmerized by HOW LOUD this thing was so far away, and how BEAUTIFUL she was. "Darling where have you BEEN all my life"? If my airshow entrance fee helps keep her or any other act of that class here, then so-be-it. (This is not to take anything away from the other performers, 'cos I love them all too)

One peeve I have is: Inaccurate and prolonged commentating WHILE I AM TRYING TO LISTEN TO MORE IMPORTANT THINGS!! (see above)

[beagle]

Been to WOW twice now and each time I was in the first 10 cars to be let in the gate in the morning. Yippee, a good park along the fence line not too far from the runway etc.
Sometime later in the morning I went and had a good look round at all the trade tents etc but when i came back my pride and joy view of the show was taken by people who had lined the fence even to the point of sitting on my bonnet as I had driven right up to the fence.
Was not happy. They didn't even move when I opened the car door and grabbed stuff from inside it.
Next time I will take a flat bed truck with canopy for shelter and just in case rain, and a lazy boy chair and even a BBQ.

[Bruce]

Bit tired of the Cliche "helicopter-accidentally-drops-the-illegally-parked-car" thing that every airshow seems to have - the whole "back story" doesnt fool anyone....

[slackie]

The worst prank pulled on an airshow crowd was a number of WOWs ago where they announced that a stealth fighter/bomber (can't remember which?) was introduced as attending.... late entry to the show.... halfway across the Tasman, passing Ohakea, down the West Coast, and finally flying up the valley... there was a big pyro explosion and that was it.... apparently too quiet for anyone to hear, and too fast for us to see. I was in the crowd at the time and it didn't go down well!!

We're not idiots (well most of us!) so announcers shouldn't treat us as such.

One of the best helicopter drops was again at a WOW where they hoisted a glider airborne, and after dangling underneath the chopper it released and flew away... was pretty cool!

Agreed that Fraser B always puts on a fantastic show... how he can do what he does is almost beyond belief. A dual RC display would be cool... watched him do one at Te Kowhai a while back... was great to watch.

Another gripe I have with some displays are when "handling" displays are given by inexperienced pilots and their low speed passes are done downwind and highspeed passes are (you guessed it) into wind, and most of the display slot is taken up by repositioning.

I have seen a couple of what I consider are very dangerous displays also... one was given by the Me108 pilot "dogfighting" with [can't remember the type - twin tail vintage light transport/VIP] at AR a couple of years ago... he was doing low speed, high angle of attack turns at very low alititude. I was with a group of pilots on the edge of the runway and we all turned away not wanting to witness the seemingly inevitable stall/spin accident.

And I have never liked the display given by a very experienced ex/RNZAF Sdn Ldr in the Poli I153... at one stage in the display he would make a very low level 360deg max rate turn away from and then back towards the crowdline... always felt that it would only take a small change in wind and the turn would need to be tightened significantly before the aircraft would end up over the crowd, and heaven forbid if he attempted to tighten the turn further to avoid overflying the crowd... again I'd always turn away.

I'm all for spectacular, but not at the expense of safety!!

[saratoga]

Well , wishing for the not so long ago days when you could access the aircraft.

I really hate the far too loud commentaries, the speakers in the view line and camper vans also right up by the fence,so you can't even get a standing- back view .
I still go to most of them if i can though!

[lesterpk]

Feb 17, 2012 17:55:46 GMT 12 slackie said:

Agreed that Fraser B always puts on a fantastic show... how he can do what he does is almost beyond belief. A dual RC display would be cool... watched him do one at Te Kowhai a while back... was great to watch.

You'll be happy at WoW this year then, a dual display is happening.

[FlyingKiwi]

Feb 17, 2012 17:55:46 GMT 12 slackie said:

I have seen a couple of what I consider are very dangerous displays also... one was given by the Me108 pilot "dogfighting" with [can't remember the type - twin tail vintage light transport/VIP] at AR a couple of years ago... he was doing low speed, high angle of attack turns at very low alititude. I was with a group of pilots on the edge of the runway and we all turned away not wanting to witness the seemingly inevitable stall/spin accident.

I remember that, the other aircraft was the Messenger which is very slow and the 108 was doing very low speed steep turns at very low altitude to stay with it - that made me uncomfortable.

[Damon]

I have always found the display by the mentioned I-153 pilot to be very good.I am sure many factors are taken in before a display is commenced.Decades of experiance there.
I am looking forward to the Ohakea Airshow in March .Cant wait!

[McFly]

Feb 17, 2012 15:59:40 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

There are some great commentators out there, Graham Orphan, Peter Mac, and the RNZAF lady are my favourites.

That would be Flt Lt Kate Clark (Ex RAF)

Attachments:

[Damon]

Bring back the battle scenarios thay had at Wanaka shows. At the wairarapa 09 airshow most of the WW 1 aircraft were up re-enacting an aerial battle.Great to watch!

[Dave Homewood]

Bruce, the solution to lunch is take your own in your bag each morning. or hang on and go for some nosh during that really boring 10 minutes when Kiwi Blue are dropping in.

They played that stupid Stealth Bomber "prank" on the crowd at the 1995 Hamilton airshow too, but worse still it was actually advertised in the pre-publicity news reports (along with the Black Knights Russian team who were booked and then pulled out because the organisers refused to pay their accommodation overknight!! Or so the paper said.)

I agree completely with fwx - keep the dogfights and mock attack melee'. It is a great spectacle but it is is also a powerful way to get across to youngsters and the uninformed just what these aircraft were for and what happened in WWII. They get better year by year too. I do like how Omaka themes them, one was Pearl Harbour, one was Monte Cassino, etc.

I also think that people who've been to the big overseas airshows and then come back to compare and criticise the NZ airshows scene, and also those who say airshows are the same all the time, are not at all being fair. We have a small population and a smaller aviation scene, with naturally an even smaller still airshow scene of active, rated pilots and owners who're able to take part. Given that, we have some of the greatest display pilots in the world right now - Keith Skilling, John Lamont, John Lanham, Frank Parker, Sean Perrett, Dave Phillips, Doug Brooker, Graham Bethel and many others are among just the top tier of our best kiwi airshow pilots. There are many others alongside them, and they put on world class displays.

I have met many people from the UK, Australia and other parts of the world at airshows who have all stated that they never get to see the close in, low down acts that we see, and some countries don't even allow warbirds to to aerobatics like loops or rolls, etc now, just boring passes along the runway back and forth, half a km from the crowd at 500 feet. How can that be better than what we see? And where else in the world too will you see the ecclectic mix of amazing aeroplanes we see at our airshows from WWI to the latest aerobatic types?

The basic answer is if you're so bored with airshows being the same over and over, just don't go so often. If you don't like the mock atack then you can leave before the end. If you don't like the commentary stand away from the speakers or take an iPod and listen to whatever you want. Take your own lunch and bottle of drink. Get there earlier and you won't be stuck in traffic. And at the end just hang around and watch the aircraft leaving, and by the time they are gone so are the traffic queues.

I feel blessed every time I get to an airshow and I sincerely think they have improved over the years, both in content and organisation (usually), and also in committment from the pilots and owners and organisers. i can't be easy to please the public all the time. Whether it's a big show like Omaka or the small relaxed events like at Whitianga, we should feel pleased that people take up their months planning these events, and others put in big money to show you their aircraft and their skills.

I recall at Omaka 2009 at the end of the first day I was standing by the aircraft park (after watching the Spitfire's debut and many excelent warbird fighter acts from all ages) admiring the spectacle of all the WWI aeroplanes when I heard an older man, 70's or so, whinging to his wife, "What a waste of money this airshow was. Only one P-40 turned up. No Hurricanes!! No Sea Furies!!! blah blah blah". I pitied the guy, he'd obviously missed the P-40 that did turn up and wasn't broken, the Corsair, the Mustangs, the Dakotas, the Yak 3, the Harvards, the Yak 52's, the Spitfire, the three!! SE.5a's, the Pfalz D, the Triplanes..... I could go on and on but then I'd be like him.

Speaking of good airshows, is/did Whitianga have an airshow this year? I've heard nothing. i loved that quaint relaxed little event two years ago.

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks McFly, that is her. She's so good at the role, a great voice and manner and so enthusiastic.

[matariki]

Pilots doing dumb things make me nervous - there was one display at Omaka last year where I actually thought the plane had crashed.

[ErrolC]

Feb 17, 2012 19:28:16 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Thanks McFly, that is her. She's so good at the role, a great voice and manner and so enthusiastic.

And it says something about the Military's communication that I searched to see if I could find her name, found a few bits saying that she had been involved in supporting the team in earlier years, thought that it was her, and searched on her name and 'Red Checkers". Couldn't confirm that she was was the current commentator from the searches I did.
I hope that there are several people in the Air Force that are just as frustrated at this situation as I am. It's possible the information is there somewhere, but I should be able to find it without too much effort.

[Brett]

Problems with air shows? Where to begin!
Let’s start with arrival and parking. At Tauranga 2008 I was one of the first cars in the gate. I was directed to park somewhere just outside Te Puke. Nearly every car that came in after me parked closer to the display line. Cars that arrived 4 hours after me got the prime parking spots. I haven’t been back to Tauranga since.

Obstructions. Having hospitality tents on the crowdline has already been mentioned. All that needs to happen with this is to set them back about 10m from the line and have a standing/sitting room area in front of the tent for patrons only. This works well at the shows that implement it. Another obstruction is the speaker towers. There have already been suggestions on placing them behind the crowd. At Omaka the speakers in front of the Gold Pass stand were at ground-level. Why not do this all the way along? Members of the crowd erecting tents, sun-shelters and Easi-Ups on the fence line are also a problem. I have no problems with people putting these up well behind the fence line. Security could do walk-around and get offending structures relocated. Having some grandstands well back from the fence line (like the TVAL and Masterton shows) provides additional good viewing areas.

Layout. Putting food and trade stalls up against the fence line is just stupid. Luckily most shows in NZ seem to be able to avoid this. When placing food outlets some thought has to be given to the long lines of people that sometimes form in front of them. How about having them queue facing the airshow, rather than away from it? I’m sure the concession workers will be upset that they don’t see the show, but aren’t the paying public the reason they are there?

When taking photos of static or taxiing aircraft I try to avoid getting Port-a-loos, parked GA aircraft and other clutter in the background. Many air show lay-outs don’t allow for this. How many of you have a photo of an aircraft parked in front of a row of green Port-a-loos? Speaking of photography – how about thinking about the location of the sun throughout the day in relation to the aerial displays? I know that moving the sun around the sky can be problematic, but at least think about any options that can be made available to photographers and not just accredited media). At Oshkosh they have a tower that the public can climb up to take panoramic views of the parked aircraft. I think it is sponsored by Canon, and you needed to have a Canon camera to have access (it was free), but something similar at one end of the static park would be neat. At the Dawn Patrol Rendevous last year they allowed attendees up on the commentary platform during a break in order to photograph the assembled aircraft. At Omaka they had a scaffolding tower in the appropriate place, and as it wasn’t roped off I was tempted to climb up and take a photo. Someone will need to supervise to keep people moving through, but it would be something I would like to see.

Most air shows would improve if the commentator just shut up. I wonder, do display aircraft provide the commentary team with a fact sheet prior to the show? Perhaps the commentators should ask for one. This could give the basic particulars of the aircraft, such as ownership, pilot, home base, some basic performance numbers, history of the type, any significant events in the type’s history, and some detail around the history of the specific individual aircraft being displayed. The air show team could even provide a template to be filled out. This would give the commentators something to talk about without them relying on their memory. And commentators should not try to be funny.

Having a schedule displayed in advance would be nice, even if it is subject to change. The TVAL shows are missing this. The commentators seem to have a schedule in front of them, but the public don’t seem to get access in advance. That can pose difficulties if you want to watch one particular aircraft start up, but have another spot staked out for watching the displays.
I personally am not in favour of lunch breaks. I will eat when there is something displaying that I don’t necessarily want to watch. Having a lunch break means everyone queues for food at the same time, and any displays that are scheduled (usually the poor RC guys) are treated as fillers.

While not a problem in NZ, aircraft doing low passes behind parked aircraft is a feature of the Duxford air shows. You have a bunch of Spitfires in a racetrack circuit, and they do low passes down the runway. This sounds good except that the display aircraft park is between the fence line and the runway, meaning the low passes are behind parked aircraft and out of view (unless you have a stepladder). Very low passes only impress those on the fence, no-one else can see them.

Access to the display aircraft park for walk-arounds is highly desirable. I realise that this must happen during a break in the show, or before /after. Having an extra fee for this seems reasonable. Wanaka & Duxford do this during the lunch break (I know, I don’t want lunch breaks…), Old Rhinebeck, AirVenture & the CAF Airsho do it prior to the show starting.

And finally, getting out. The parking people at most air shows seem to knock off when the last act displays. This leaves all of the patrons to snarl up the exits until they get to the public roads and the Police start directing traffic. How about some traffic management within the parking areas after the show ends?

I will say that the displays themselves are far better than a majority of the shows I have been to overseas (and I've been to many of the major ones). We have more variety, and the displays are more visible and dynamic than in most countries. I will continue to support the local airshow scene.

[Radialicious]

Good thread Slackie - it's interesting to hear the opinions of so many. I have been an airshow junkie since 1988 when Ian Brodie chartered an Air NZ F-27 to Wanaka to a little pageant called 'Warbirds on Parade'. I was a teenager at the time and have really enjoyed watching the Kiwi airshow machine evolve.

[corsairarm]

Dave
I didn't intend to criticize the Airshows out here it just probably because at the CAF airshow I went to in 1977 there seemed like 500 WW2 aircraft there AND I got to fly in 3 bombers during the actual display (B25, B17 and B24). That's probably because I was part of a group from MOTAT and were probably treated a little different and we could just wonder around the aircraft park. At Duxford there were planes like the Swordfish and Mosquito. That 12mths I was away was just awesome for a war birds fan like me.
The NZ scene has improved a lot since then and the displays have been well worth it. I enjoy just going to Warbirds at Ardmore when they do their little displays and will be going to Ardmore on the 4th March. It just that I like to see something new in war birds and in RNZAF colours.
As a thought just imagine if the Ardmore P40 and P51 were swoped overseas for an ex NZ examples and then flown with the Masterton planes. They could then be described as an RNZAF memorial flight and then combine them with the Hurricane and the Ohakia Spitfire. To me that would be really truly special.
Just picture it.