Erks and Baggies

[Dave Homewood]

During WWII the junior ranked groundstaff of the RNZAF were, just as in the RAF, referred to as the Erks. The poor old Erk did all the work.

When I was in the RNZAF from 1989-93 we junior ranked groundstaff were called Baggies. I seldom ever heard the term Erk used.

Does anyone know when the term Erk was phased out and baggies became the experssion instead?

Where did 'Baggies' or Baggy' come from? Was it something to do with the overalls?

Are Baggies still Baggies these days or has the language evolved again?

[shorty]

I was under the impression that baggies came from (a0 the overalls,especially the old greenish ones and (b) the uniforms in general as the Officers were tailored the other ranks were basically "off the peg"
we were baggies in the 60s.

[camtech]

What's the matter with you two insomniacs.

Most of us sleep at those unsociable hours!!

[ngatimozart]

Mar 6, 2012 8:01:16 GMT 12 camtech said:

What's the matter with you two insomniacs.

Most of us sleep at those unsociable hours!!

Some of us might be night owls and be known to trawl the bowels of the net at 0dark00

[phil]

They are still baggies.

[xbaggy]

I can confirm that a Baggy, got his name, from the huge sack like overalls we wore. As an under training (u/t), aircraftsman (a/c),waiting for a course, you were relegated to the cast off bag.
On passing your Mechanics Course you were issued with three pairs of overalls which were your size, but not neccessarily new.
Becoming a Fitter you were spending a bit more time in the Baggies club and tended to fill the overalls a bit more.
On achieving the rank of Corporal you were still a Baggy, until the magic divide (cannot think of the term when you could sign out A/C) and you could wear the very unflatterng dust coat.
Seargants wore the dust coats and only put on overalls when the going got sticky.
Did not ever see a F/Sgt or W/O wearing them

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks xbaggy. What sort of era are you referring to, 1960's? Did you ever hear the term erk being used much back then?

In my time we got the blue cotton overalls form the outset, even as u/ts. Usually second hand oes, but later we got issued new, bright blue horrible things that were much less comfy. Dust coats were rare in my time, most Sgts etc wore overalls, but my F/Sgt did wear one occasionally, as did a few others around. They were a tan brown colour.

[phil]

The Tan dust coats are still issued. I have one or two floating around somewhere.

They are more popular at Ohakea where you can't wear 'blues and blacks' (blue T shirt and black shorts) on base roads, but you can if you put a dust coat over the top! So in summer people popping into the canteen often wear them.

They also seem quite popular with avionics.

[shorty]

"tan brown" Dave term for khaki.

[beagle]

Those tan dust coats should have been a green colour with being popular with avionics.

Baggies was a common term when I wa sin, along with "skins"

[Dave Homewood]

They weren't khaki Shorty, they were tan. Khaki is far more green in colour, like WWII army battledress.

Yes the Avionics guys liked the dust coats because a lot of them just put them over normal uniform if working in a bay, rather than change to work clothes (in my day light blue stubbies and t-shirt).

And yes, I'd forgotten but you reminded me Phil that the stubbies and Jockey T-shirt wasn't allowed on streets, had to pull the overalls on to go down the road. But if you went up the tarmac side instead it was fine. Haha.

[shorty]

From Wikipedia
The name of the color khaki coined in British India comes from the Hindustani language (itself a borrowed form of the Persian word khak meaning dust), meaning "dusty, dust covered or earth colored." It has been used by many armies around the world for uniforms, including camouflage. Most notably, khaki was used by the British Army in India beginning in 1848.

In Western fashion, it is a standard color for smart casual dress pants (trousers) for civilians.

However, the name is sometimes also used to describe a green color similar to asparagus or pale sea green (especially by the linen/textile/lingerie industries[citation needed]). In the mid-twentieth century as many Western militaries adopted an olive drab instead of the older, more brownish khaki, the two color names became associated with each other.

Initially, khaki was the characteristic color of British tropical uniforms, having a shade closer to the original Indian idea of 'dusty' brown. To these days, in common parlance of Anglo-Saxon countries, khaki as color brings to mind a brown, even beige, hue. This is not necessarily the case for the military terminology, though, often creating confusion. In common sartorial parlance 'British' or 'golden' khaki has a deeper, ochre shade than 'American' khaki, which may be described as a medium to light beige.

When khaki was adopted for the continental British Service dress in 1902, the shade chosen had a clearly darker and more greenish hue. This color was adopted with minor variations by all the British Empire Armies and the US expeditionary force of World War I, in the latter under the, probably more descriptive, name Olive Drab. This shade of brown-green remained in use by many countries throughout the two World Wars. One could roughly divide the world's Armies in the first half of the century in those wearing 'khaki' (brown-green) - US, UK, France, Russia/Soviet Union, Japan, Canada, Australia, Belgium, Holland, Turkey, Greece to name but few - and those that chose grey-green shades, foremost Germany, Austria, Italy, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Scandinavian countries. Then again there was dramatic variation and significant overlap between the two extremes of brown and grey, even within the same army.

During the second half of the WWII, American olive drab became distinctly greener, a major departure from the original idea of khaki. Most of the countries that participated post war in the NATO alliance, adopted the US military style and with it the green olive drab color (often called olive green for this reason). This color continued to be called khaki in many European countries. In France for example the term passed in the general language for a green-shade of olive color. The older yellow-brown used in WWI was called in France moutarde instead. Nowadays very few significant militaries still use solid olive drab or khaki for battledress - with notable exceptions the Israeli IDF and the Austrian Bundesheer, as the vast majority has adopted multicolor camouflage.

The dust coats were called, in stores parlance, coats-dust-khaki.
Also the summer weight uniforms which someone on this forum (no names,no pack drill) called "tan" were officially described, in BROs, NZAPs, stores forms etc as khaki drill, thus describing the colour and the type of fabric

[14liney]

Shorty is right. Our summer/tropical uniforms were khaki drill (KD). BTW moutarde is french for mustard.

[Dave Homewood]

Fair enough Shorty. They might have been called khaki in the Stores paperwork, but they are tan in colour, not green. When people here are referring to green overalls, black shorts, blue shirts, etc, calling something by their colour as a description must be still fine, right? Even if the nomenclature uses a different word,

And I was aware that khaki was Urdu for dust, as it happens.

[flyjoe180]

Mar 7, 2012 10:37:12 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

And I was aware that khaki was Urdu for dust, as it happens.

Lance Coropral Jones saw to that

[Dave Homewood]

Yup.