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Post by phil82 on Apr 14, 2012 22:04:28 GMT 12
Historic planes buried in Second World War are to be shipped back to Britain after their mystery locations were discovered
War leaders did not want them to fall into foreign hands when they demobilised in 1945
Hidden in crates at a depth of 4ft to 6ft the RAF then forgot where they were.Twenty brand-new RAF Spitfires could soon reach for the sky following a deal reached with Burma yesterday.
Experts believe they have discovered the locations of around 20 of the Second World War fighters buried at airfields around the country.
David Cameron has secured an agreement that they will be returned to Britain.
They are apparently Mk14s and were delivered in crates toward the end of the war but never assembled, so still in original grease-proof packing!
Just Imagine...20 brand new original Spitfires coming onto the market !
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Post by raymond on Apr 14, 2012 22:14:45 GMT 12
I had to check to see if todays date was the first... www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9203822/Spitfires-buried-in-Burma-during-war-to-be-returned-to-UK.htmlThe Prime Minister secured a historic deal that will see the fighter aircraft dug up and shipped back to the UK almost 67 years after they were hidden more than 40-feet below ground amid fears of a Japanese occupation. The gesture came as Mr Cameron became the first Western leader to meet Aung San Suu Kyi, the Burmese democracy campaigner held under house arrest for 22 years by the military regime, and invited her to visit London in her first trip abroad for 24 years. He called on Europe to suspend its ban on trade with Burma now that it was showing “prospects for change” following Miss Suu Kyi’s election to parliament in a sweeping electoral victory earlier this year. The plight of the buried aircraft came to Mr Cameron’s attention at the behest of a farmer from SCant Aircraft of Italyhorpe, North Lincs, who is responsible for locating them at a former RAF base using radar imaging technology. David Cundall, 62, spent 15 years doggedly searching for the Mk II planes, an exercise that involved 12 trips to Burma and cost him more than £130,000 |
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Post by Andy Wright on Apr 15, 2012 0:39:11 GMT 12
Have to admit I had to check the date as well.
Who would have thought it?! I've always daydreamed about lost Beaufighters and Hurricanes in particular (with occasional forays into Mohawks, Blenheims and Vengeances!) in Burma from a lost aircrew point of view as well as potential surviving airframes - 'Bunny' Stone's story of pranging a Hurri on a sandbar always fascinated me and that's just the tip of the iceberg - but being such a jungly and tropical place it would always be a challenge. Never gave any though to aircraft delivered but not assembled etc.
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Post by shorty on Apr 15, 2012 9:14:24 GMT 12
just heard a short news item on National Radio regarding the British PM talking to the Burmese leaders regarding some (5?) Spitfires that were buried on RAF airfield in Burma for fear of them being captured by the Japanese. They were buried "in their crates" (aren't they always?) and that a British group claimed to know where they are,
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Post by baz62 on Apr 15, 2012 10:00:20 GMT 12
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Post by errolmartyn on Apr 15, 2012 11:23:48 GMT 12
"However, advances in technology and the emergence of more agile jets meant they were never used and in July 1945, officials fearing a Japanese occupation abandoned them on the orders of Lord Louis Mountbatten, the head of South East Asia Command, two weeks before the atom bombs were dropped, ending the conflict.
“They were just buried there in transport crates,” Mr Cundall said. “They were waxed, wrapped in greased paper and their joints tarred. They will be in near perfect condition.”
The married father of three, an avid plane enthusiast, embarked on his voyage of discovery in 1996 after being told of their existence by a friend who had met some American veterans who described digging a trench for the aircraft during the Allied withdrawal of Burma."
In July 1945 the Japanese in Burma, or what was left of their badly mauled forces by then, were retreating and there was no danger then of their occupying any base held by the Allied forces (who were performing the exact opposite of a 'withdrawal') that I know of. Reporting of the story more than a little confused?
Errol
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 15, 2012 12:31:29 GMT 12
The Spitfire Mark XIVs in July 1945 story simply does not make sense.
The Japanese forces in Burma were well and truly on the back foot at that late stage.
The Spitfire Mark II theory is feasible.
The Mark II came into service at the height of the Battle of Britain, about September 1940. Some of this Mark could have been sent to reinforce the RAF in Burma after Pearl Harbour.
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Post by Naki on Apr 15, 2012 13:38:37 GMT 12
They are Mark XIVs (and perhaps VIIIs) not IIs...some newspaper reports are wrong. From what I am reading they were buried in 45/46 after the Japanese surrendered.....they were worried about Communist Burmsee getting hold of them not the Japanesee
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 15, 2012 14:23:10 GMT 12
I have merged two seperate threads into the one original thread.
In the other now defunct thread, Shorty wrote:
"Sorry Dave if this is the wrong place but I put it here as I couldnt' find the other post. I didn't think to check the NZ history board as they were in Burma (not here in NZ) "
For the past couple of months there has been a seperate sub-Board for aircraft preservation overseas. Also seperate sub-boards for overseas Civil aviation, Air Force stories, Army stories and Navy stories. This is simply because the forum's database is now so huge the different genres are segregated off to make searching for a thread down the track much easier. I think most people have not yet cottoned on to these changes as I am continually having to shift threads around. No harm done, just everyone needs to be aware in the future that the General Board is pretty much non-aviation and military stuff now.
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Post by shorty on Apr 16, 2012 8:08:20 GMT 12
From the telegraph (UK)
The extraordinary plans to dig up the lost squadron were revealed this weekend as David Cameron visits the country.
Now, David Cundall, 62, of Sandtoft, near SCant Aircraft of Italyhorpe, has spoken about his quest to recover the Spitfires and get them airborne.
Mr Cundall has spent £130,000 of his own money, visited Burma 12 times, persuaded the country’s notoriously secretive regime to trust him, and all the time sought testimony from a dwindling band of Far East veterans in order to locate the Spitfires.
Yet his treasure hunt was sparked by little more than a throwaway remark from a group of US veterans, made 15 years ago to his friend and fellow aviation archaeologist Jim Pearce.
Mr Cundall said: “The veterans had served in a construction battalion. They told Jim: 'We’ve done some pretty silly things in our time, but the silliest was burying Spitfires.’ And when Jim got back from the US, he told me.”
Mr Cundall realised that the Spitfires would have been buried in their transport crates.
Before burial, the aeroplanes would have been waxed, wrapped in greased paper and their joints tarred, to protect them against decay. There seemed to be a chance that somewhere in Burma, there lay Spitfires that could be restored to flying condition.
He was determined to find them. The first step was to place advertisements in magazines, trying to find soldiers who buried Spitfires.
“The trouble was that many of them were dying of old age.”
He visited Burma over and over again, slowly building friendly relations with the military junta that have for decades held power in the capital, Rangoon.
“In the end the minders trusted me so much they would let me hold their AK-47s while they ate the lunch I had bought them.”
And finally, he found the Spitfires, at a location that is being kept a closely guarded secret.
Mr Cundall said: “We sent a borehole down and used a camera to look at the crates. They seemed to be in good condition.”
Mr Cundall explained that in August 1945 the Mark XIV aeroplanes, which used Rolls-Royce Griffon engines instead of the Merlins of earlier models, were put in crates and transported from the factory in Castle Bromwich, in the West Midlands, to Burma.
Once they arrived at the RAF base, however, the Spitfires were deemed surplus to requirements. The war was in its final months and fighting was by now increasingly focused on 'island-hopping’ to clear the Japanese of their remaining strongholds in the Pacific. Land-based Spitfires, as opposed to carrier-based Seafires, did not have the required range.
The order was given to bury 12 Spitfires while they were still in their transport crates.
Then two weeks later, the first atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. The Japanese surrendered on September 2 1945.
It is possible that a further eight Spitfires were then buried in December 1945, bringing the potential total of lost Spitfires to 20.
Mr Cundall said that about 21,000 Spitfires were built, but at the end of the war very few were wanted.
“In 1945, Spitfires were ten a penny. Jets were coming into service. Spitfires were struck off charge, unwanted. Lots of Spitfires were just pushed off the back of aircraft carriers into the sea.
“On land, you couldn’t leave them for the locals – they might have ended up being used against you. It was a typical British solution: 'Let’s bury them lads.’ They might have planned to come back and dig them up again. They never did.”
To meet the £500,000 cost of the excavation Mr Cundall enlisted the help of Steve Boultbee Brooks, 51, a commercial property investor who also runs the Boultbee Flight Academy, in Chichester, West Sussex, which teaches people to fly on the two-seater Spitfire that Mr Brooks bought for £1.78 million in 2009.
Ground radar images showed that inside the crates were Spitfires with their wings packed alongside the fuselages.
The Britons now want to work to restore as many of the 20 Spitfires as possible and get them flying. If the project works, it will nearly double the number of airworthy Spitfires. There are currently only about 35 flying in the world.
Mr Cundall said: “We want to dig as many Spitfires up as we find.
“Spitfires are beautiful aeroplanes and should not be rotting away in a foreign land. They saved our neck in the Battle of Britain and they should be preserved.”
The final obstacle to recovering the Spitfires, however, is political: international sanctions forbid the movement of military materials in and out of Burma, and it was also feared the Burmese government would not allow any foreign excavations on their territory.
Because of the new, reforming stance of the Burmese government, it is likely some sanctions will be lifted after an EU review begins on April 23.
With the help of David Cameron and his visit to Burma, a deal is currently being negotiated and hopes are high that it will conclude with President Thein Sein of Burma granting permission for the dig.
Mr Brooks, who returned to his Oxford home on Saturday, after helping open negotiations with the Burmese authorities, said: “Our hope is that we can be digging them out in the next three or four weeks. Then the plan is to get as many of them flying as possible.
“They have been in the ground for more than 65 years, so it is not a case of taking them out of the crates, putting them together and flying them. There is a lot of work to do. We may have to use parts of many planes to make perhaps a couple airworthy.
“But if the crates didn’t get waterlogged, the Spitfires might be in pretty amazing condition. It’s also encouraging that they put teak beams over the crates so they wouldn’t be crushed by the earth when they were buried.”
Mr Cundall also raised the tantalising prospect that there may be more buried Spitfires out there.
“It’s possible there are other Spitfires buried around different sites in Burma. I have heard about 36 in one burial; 18 in another; 6 in another. And when they were buried, they would have been brand new, never taken out of the box.”
Mr Brooks, however, cautioned: “People have spent decades scouring the earth for Spitfires. If other aeroplanes are there, they may be very difficult to find.”
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Post by strikemaster on Apr 16, 2012 12:16:45 GMT 12
They are Mark XIVs (and perhaps VIIIs) not IIs...some newspaper reports are wrong. From what I am reading they were buried in 45/46 after the Japanese surrendered.....they were worried about Communist Burmsee getting hold of them not the Japanesee That makes far more sense. This is pretty exciting stuff. |
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 16, 2012 15:42:32 GMT 12
Burma did not attain its independence until January 1948.
The Royal Air Force thus had two years to move its assets out of Burma.
Why effectively destroy 20 new aircraft when there was 2 years in which to ship the Spitfires out ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 16, 2012 16:27:00 GMT 12
They were probably not wanted by then. Meteors, Vampires and Tempests were replacing them in frontline service.
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 16, 2012 20:05:19 GMT 12
They were probably not wanted by then. Meteors, Vampires and Tempests were replacing them in frontline service. Even so, the rational course of action would be to retire 20 ( or more ) war-weary aircraft and put the new ones into service. I mean no disrespect to Mr Cundall, his dedication is admirable, but the only evidence, if evidence it is, is the recollection of some veterans from a US construction battalion. Army personnel looking back after more than five decades ! Again, no disrespect intended. A couple of years ago I was admiring NZ3009 at Hood Aerodrome when a visitor came up and asked ( with a distinct North American accent as it happens ) if this was a Spitfire. Despite the huge interest in the Spitfire on the part of the British public over the last 30 years or so I cannot recall reading of a single RAF Burma veteran coming forward with a tale of burying Spitfires at the end of the war. Not one and there would have been scores of men involved. |
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Apr 16, 2012 21:17:20 GMT 12
Quote: "...but the the only evidence, if evidence it is, is the recollection of some veterans from a US construction battalion. Army engineers looking back after more than five decades !"
See article above: "Ground radar images showed that inside the crates were Spitfires with their wings packed alongside the fuselages"
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Post by dakdriver on Apr 16, 2012 22:10:24 GMT 12
Brand new spitfires in packing cases - sounds too good to be true (I would bet that it is. However I would love to be proved wrong.)
In my photo collection I have a photo of a spitfire taken in Thailand. This aircraft was removed from Burma in the late eighties. Has a four blade wooden prop (what’s left of it) tail is broken off, but all the parts were there. I think it is an ex Israel mark 19 that was operated in Burma after Israel had finished with them. They were ferried there in 1955 (I think)
There were another two removed from Burma to the UK just recently, (I believe one of these eventually ended up in NZ (others on the forum could confirm this) both were in a very used condition and were located on some old disused strips quite overgrown but close to a local village.
I did spend some time looking for these remaining two when I was poking around that area in 1990 but at times it became quite hot and a little detrimental to one’s health so a strategic withdrawal was completed. Unfortunately I was unable to return to continue searching.
As for the ones buried, it will be very interesting to see how this story unfolds and a quick look on the internet shows a feeding frenzy is surely under way.
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Post by errolmartyn on Apr 16, 2012 22:16:38 GMT 12
Quote: "...but the the only evidence, if evidence it is, is the recollection of some veterans from a US construction battalion. Army engineers looking back after more than five decades !" See article above: "Ground radar images showed that inside the crates were Spitfires with their wings packed alongside the fuselages" Going by the quality of the ground radar images that the well-known Time Team come up with, I'd say that it is stretching credibility by a long stretch to say that the Burma images would confirm that whatever is/was buried there were/are in fact Spitfires. They may well be, but I doubt that ground radar imagery is adequate to prove it on its own. Errol |
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Post by angelsonefive on Apr 17, 2012 2:56:00 GMT 12
.."four blade wooden prop (what’s left of it) tail is broken off, but all the parts were there. I think it is an ex Israel mark 19 "..
Interesting, but it could not have been a Mk 19 ( RR Griffon engine) as these had a 5 blade prop.
The Mk 12 was the only Griffon Spitfire to have a 4 blade propeller and none of these made it to the Far East.
The plane you saw, dakdriver, must have been a Merlin Spitfire.
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Post by ErrolC on Apr 17, 2012 8:21:23 GMT 12
Burma did not attain its independence until January 1948. The Royal Air Force thus had two years to move its assets out of Burma. Why effectively destroy 20 new aircraft when there was 2 years in which to ship the Spitfires out ? To me, having some of a shipment that never left their packing crates and ended up on an airfield that the front line has moved on from is plausible. If you have the ability to destroy them on-site, that sounds like a lot less work than arranging to truck them to a port and ship them to India or the UK, where they will get destroyed anyway. Plenty of surplus aircraft about of no use, they were even accepting delivery of aircraft from the factory, and storing or destroying them in some cases. Some interesting analysis of possible serials involved at forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1879319&postcount=239 |
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Post by dakdriver on Apr 17, 2012 8:24:36 GMT 12
Angelsonefive You are correct Burma spitfire is a Merlin powered one, they were mark 9 and my photo would confirm that. (I am not an expert on the different marks) but I do have a photo of a griffon powered spitfire in Thai Air Force markings. (That would be a mark 19?) There are still many 1955 imported Spitfires not accounted for in Burma and I think you are more likely to find one or some of these than some brand new ones buried underground over there. I can’t find any reference to the RAF operating spitfires in Burma before 1945, So in order for these aircraft to be delivered to Burma there must surely be some reference to their arrival there.  History says the Japs entered Rangoon in March 1942 |
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