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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 11:20:43 GMT 12
Anyone have any news of the Sioux replacement contenders?
Personally I'd like to see them contract out basic rotary wing training and get something like a EC-145 as a LUH/advanced trainer.
I think the RNZAF still needs a Iroquois size aircraft as they are easily deployable by C-130.
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 9, 2006 11:59:40 GMT 12
Well they certainly need something new soon, as the old Sioux are looking a bit tired and worn out.
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Post by Bruce on Jun 9, 2006 12:58:51 GMT 12
I'd think something like an EC120 would be in the picture - a relatively simple single turbine machine that can be used for general purpose duties as well. the Squirrel would also be an option, but are they making them now?. I have heard some discussion about training on a turbine helicopter, and whether the Schweizer 300CB would be more suitable, but its a big step from there to an NH90, and in many respects turbines are easier to handle than light piston engines. Maybe we'll see some Robbies (R22) in RNZAF colours!  |
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Post by phil on Jun 9, 2006 17:36:53 GMT 12
I'm not sure what the current state of play is, last time I sat in on any briefings was over a year ago. At that stage the plan was to get something big enough to conduct crew and winching training as well as pilot training. That would need something big enough to fit four in the back (crew instructor, winch operator, casualty and another crewie to go down on the wire).
I'm not really up on the play with different helicopters, so I can't really comment on what they might pick.
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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 21:58:31 GMT 12
I'd think something like an EC120 would be in the picture - a relatively simple single turbine machine that can be used for general purpose duties as well. the Squirrel would also be an option, but are they making them now?. I Are they still making them !!!!!  Please The AS350B3 is the largest selling, best value for money single engled Helicopter on the market. They are so popluar that Eurocopter has a US Subsidery that makes them under licence in the US. Theya re outselling the jet ranger and MD 500's, even in the US The AS350B3 recently became the first helicopter to land on Mt Everest. The AS350B3 has a military version called the AS550A3 (IIRC) Fennec. The B3 would be a good choice if they wnat cheap, hi performace single engined twin. It's a better machine than the "newer looking" EC120 (more power etc). The RNZAF did look at the ex Singaporean AS350 A2 Fennec (basically a AS350B2) but for some reason weren't interested (anyone know why?) As an aside, these are now sitting in a hangar in bankstown (Sydney). Some guy bought them thinking he'd make a killing selling them onto civy's. But CASA and Eurocopter won't certify them to fly in Australia because they ex Military machines (A2's) not civilan B2's. They are pretty much identical except they are wired for weapons like TOW, Gun pods etc Bet the's pissed off :-)\ Here's a pic  |
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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 22:02:19 GMT 12
I'm not sure what the current state of play is, last time I sat in on any briefings was over a year ago. At that stage the plan was to get something big enough to conduct crew and winching training as well as pilot training. That would need something big enough to fit four in the back (crew instructor, winch operator, casualty and another crewie to go down on the wire). You can't really get 4 in the back of Squirrel. From training 1 (or max 2) Students and 1 instructor is about it. So they might be after something bigger Most winch training here isn't done with personnel, but with bags, weights etc. Things like trying to get the hook to pick something out of the ocean, transfer lines from ships etc live winching is about 1 or winches in our syllabus |
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Post by phil on Jun 9, 2006 22:02:47 GMT 12
I heard a rumour we didn't buy them becuase they were as expensive as new ones. Don't know if that's the reason, but it was the word at the time.
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Post by Calum on Jun 9, 2006 22:12:59 GMT 12
thanks Phil, wouldn't surprise me
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Post by Bruce on Jun 9, 2006 23:19:40 GMT 12
Cool, theyre still making squirrels - I wasnt sure as I dont follow helicopters as closely as some other flying machines. That being the case that would be my pick, the RAF use them and obviously so do the aussies they certainly have a good reputation amongst NZ civil operators. Maybe they cant get 4 in the back with ease, but if that meant they needed a bigger, more complex helicopter, wouldnt that spoil the basic helicopter training side of things? |
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 9, 2006 23:45:27 GMT 12
In some ways this issue seems to highlight a bit of a problem with the NH-90 purchase. Because the RNZAF needs a helicopter that they can practice winching from, the NH-90 is possibly too big and uneconomical for that sort of task, so the new pilot training chopper is going to have to be something more like the Iroqouis in size.
How many people can you squeeze into an Agusta A109 - does anyone know?
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Post by Calum on Jun 10, 2006 11:26:29 GMT 12
A A109/EC-45 sized aircraft would be a good choice for a Light Ultitlity helicopter . It would certainily fit the requirements above although they are twin engined. The AB-109 is a contender for the ADF training helicopter project I believe.
leeads back to my inital post. Cotract out basic rotary wing training on Robbos or Squirrels or whatever (even send trainees to the UK)
Get a EC-145/A-109 for advanced training and light ultitly work
The US Army is about to announce the winner of their LUH competition. it's basically a COTS helicopter to repalced all OH-58, UH-1H and Blackhawks that are used in the continental USA as base hacks, SAR A/c etc
Top contenders are UH-145 (EC-145) and AB139 (Which is a AB 109 with Skids) Numbers involved are huge , up to 322 airframes which would be a massive order for either company.
Another point to notice both of these machines are european, the US has seriousily lost their way in Helicopter design in the past 10 -15 yrs.
Eurocopter have been smart in seeing the demand for a repalcement aircraft with the UH-1H/412 capacity and the EC-145 has been designed as this. It has about the same (slight larger IIRC) cargo capcity as a UH-1H/412.
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Post by DragonflyDH90 on Jun 10, 2006 14:30:53 GMT 12
Robinson R44 Raven would be a fairly logical choice if they were to stick with piston. Great helicopter.
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Post by xr6turbo1 on Jun 18, 2006 21:53:00 GMT 12
I am amazed our airforce is still operating the Sioux. I flew in one around 10 years ago and thought the same then.
They have been a good trainer and I do find it amazing that they are still used to train our pilots in 2006.
Does anyone know how many are still flying?
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jun 18, 2006 22:16:03 GMT 12
Does anyone know how many are still flying?
Five, I believe.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 18, 2006 23:46:20 GMT 12
They're doing well then, only three ever seemed to fly while I was at Wigram back in 1991-93, with a couple of 'spares' laid up in the hangar. Definately only three flew out of there from memory, when the choppers moved north to Auckland
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Post by steve on Jun 19, 2006 2:16:49 GMT 12
At one stage they must have been transfered to the army as observation choppers....I always remember NZ Army in bold painted on the fuel tanks....what do we know of the army air corps of the 1960s 70s? ie Army pilots with airforce servicing etc? not sure...
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Post by corsair67 on Jun 19, 2006 9:23:54 GMT 12
I think the Army pilots were quite good at crashing them! ;D
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Post by Bruce on Jun 19, 2006 9:38:08 GMT 12
The aircraft were not "transferred" to the army but remained on RNZAF strength, operated "On Behalf of" the Army, by a mixture of Army and RNZAF pilots - A similar confusing scenario to the Wasp Helicopters on the Navy Frigates. The Sioux replaced the 3 Sqn Auster J5s in Army co-op work (the Austers also had Army titles but were on RNZAF strength). And yes, the Army co-op role took its toll, nearly 50% of the fleet was lost doing that work. Surprisingly there have been very few incidents with them since they have reverted to training only.
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jun 29, 2006 21:35:02 GMT 12
When I was on my AvMech's course at Wigram way back in 1984 I remember we were all out on a Base parade and the Chief of Air Staff got up and announced that the Sioux was to be replaced within the next 12 months... well its now 22 years later and guess what! ;D I heard that the ex Singapore Squirrels weren't in very good condition (corrosion) and had other maintenance issues (poor documentation/maintenance records). I also hear that the RNZAF doesn't intend to totally retire the Iroquois when the NH90 (or whatever they end up getting) comes along... they will be keeping some in service as long as possible. They realised that they will only end up with about 8 NH90's for the money Gov't has allocated (its probably down to 6 now at the rate the NZ$ is devaluing!). Hence they want to keep some Huey's just to keep crews current! What a sorry state of affairs... the Army has 105 LAV's  though so I don't know what they need any helicopters for anyway! ;D |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 29, 2006 21:57:08 GMT 12
It does make sense to keep some iroquois on with the new replacements, as the Government doesn't seem intent of buying a squadron's worth of new ones. And that way they can still take choppers by Hercules to the ice, Pacific etc.
Start designing your entries for the 3 Squadron Iroquois 50th Anniversary tail...
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though so I don't know what they need any helicopters for anyway! ;D