|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 22, 2006 22:40:48 GMT 12
I have been thinking about the infamous term used by Clark about the Skyhawks as being "clapped out".
Does anyone have a transcript of the actual speech or comments, as I'd like to know what the actual context was that she used this term. I can;t recall the details of wht she said.
The thing is, a) they were not clapped out as far as I'm aware; b) her use of the term has undoubtedly done irrepairable damage to the campaign to sell them on; and c) if she didn't want clapped out fighters in the Air Force, then all she had to do was await the arrival of the new ones we'd bought and paid for. My perception of her statement as I see it is 'woman' is mad. But I'd like to see the whole statement/speech to see if I'm taking it out of context.
|
|
|
|
Post by mumbles on Jul 23, 2006 0:02:58 GMT 12
I recall a lot of misinformation/disinformation being passed off as fact at press conferences at the time. Never figured out if it was deliberate, or just a result of being badly informed.
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Jul 23, 2006 11:27:28 GMT 12
Love here or hate her, the one thing you can't deny about Helen is that she is never, ever, caught off guard, she's that ruthless. She's walking a very fine line at the moment, not helped by "look at me" Winston, that Taito Field idiot, the tennis ball man, and the fact that it will only take a very minor sea change to see her ousted next year. Winston has been in just about every party known to man, and his current one was started by himself. He has no seat in Parliament, wasn't elected by anyone, isn't a member of the Cabinet, and ends up Foreign Minister? That's how desperate Helen is!
I don't think the "Clapped out" phrase was handed to her; I think she simply threw it in herself.
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jul 23, 2006 12:09:24 GMT 12
Rant On:
The only thing clapped out in New Zealand is the bloody electoral system which allows unelected swill (e.g Winnie and Nandi Tandoori/Toxic Nachos - whatever that Green party idiot with the dreds is called!) to be given cushy jobs in Parliament!
Colin, you say that Helen is never caught off guard; well I'd disagree with that because I think she's been caught off guard on numerous occasions - that's when you see her nasty, spiteful, bullying side come out in public. I also like how she can be involved in something, but never has to carry the can when it goes pear-shaped e.g. the famous Oamaru-Christchurch speeding incident.
Put quite simply: she's an arrogant bitch!
Rant Off.
Anyway, Dave I do recall reading or hearing about the "clapped out" comment here too, but I don't recall the context it was used either. Maybe you could contact Radio NZ or TVNZ to see if they have it on file?
Funny that the ADF didn't seem to think they were "clapped out" though!
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Jul 23, 2006 13:30:56 GMT 12
It's worse than that: she forged her signature on a painting, the Police advised they had a case, but it "wasn't in the public interest" to prosecute; she hung her police driver out to dry in the high-speed motorcade episode but the police decided "it wasn't in the public interest"to take action;the police advised there was a case to answer in the Benson-Pope incident but didn't proceed due to it "not being in the public interest", and now we have the case of a Samoan elected MP with a huge majority in South Auckland who has proved to be a bit of a devious bastard but there will be no formal investigation because, you guessed it, Helen says "it's not in the public interest". If he resigns, there will have to a general election and Helen will be toast!
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Jul 23, 2006 13:41:24 GMT 12
My memory recall of the comment may not be correct, but I think she first used the term in Parliament in response to a claim by Jenny Shipley that she, "Helen" had left the country defenceless and when they "National" got into power they would restore the squadrons.
At the time, I wrote to Jenny Shipley and told her, politely, that she was talking rubbish because National would do nothing of the sort given the fact that all the aircrew had gone, along with the groundcrews, and the technical ability, so she should attack the Government on fact. She didn't reply!
I have it from a source close to the action that those Skyhawks will not fly again, in anyone's hands. The potentian buyer is in trouble, and besides, it would take a lot of money to put the birds back in the air.
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jul 23, 2006 14:19:49 GMT 12
Colin, that's quite a list of little "episodes", isn't it? Helen's obviously learnt a great deal from the Ferdinand and Imelda Marcos School of Politics. Of course, by the time the next election comes around everyone will have forgotten about all these fiascos. Bring back Social Credit, I say - where's Bruce Beetham when you need him! ;-)
I have noted that there seems to be change in feeling towards Helen over the past couple of years when I've been home: even the media seems to have turned on her somewhat.
I'm waiting for one of the Iwi's to put in a claim under the Treaty for the Skyhawks and Macchis; they'd be damn good for settling some old scores! :-)
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jul 23, 2006 15:11:11 GMT 12
Dave, found this while searching through the Hansard online. Rt Hon. HELEN CLARK:................. "What it comes down to is not a debate about the money. It is a debate about how we configure the force. If the Leader of the Opposition thinks the difference between being combat ready, and not combat ready, is 17 clapped-out Skyhawks, then she has less intelligence than I gave her credit for. And that is the difference! If she thinks the difference between being isolationist, and not isolationist, is having 17 clapped-out Skyhawks, she really is as silly as that speech implied. It is simply ridiculous." The full text is available at - vdig.net/hansard/content.jsp?id=85476 |
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Jul 23, 2006 15:27:28 GMT 12
Well, my recall was correct! The "She" she was referring to was, of course, Jenny Shipley!
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jul 23, 2006 15:48:25 GMT 12
I have been reading all the Hansard documents either side of the one I posted above - but I had to stop because my blood was starting to boil!
Keith Locke's speech was the last straw..........!
Did the Govt ever finally release all the papers pertaining to the decision to disband the Air Combat Wing; or as I suspect, are they still buried somewhere in Wellington?
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Jul 23, 2006 21:32:38 GMT 12
Keith Locke is an idiot, whom fortunately eveyone ignores.
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jul 23, 2006 21:46:21 GMT 12
I had a quick look at the Greens website this afternoon, and what a bunch of tossers they all are! Not worth feeding - any of them!
I have saved quite a few links from Hansard about the F-16 deal and the Air Combat Wing disbandment so I can read them all a bit later. It's all very interesting how Labour went from just cancelling the F-16 deal and keeping the Skyhawks until 2007/8, then later to completely disbanding the whole ACW.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 24, 2006 12:39:12 GMT 12
Thanks for finding the quote Craig.
Your last statement regarding the cancellation is on the nail. If Clark was so worried that the Air Force wasn't combat ready why did she cancel the new fighters? Errghhh!!
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jul 24, 2006 13:12:55 GMT 12
Yes, well Clark and Co had obviously thought about the Air Combat Wing issue quite a bit before they won the election, but of course they didn't have the guts to mention it in public at any time before the election, did they?
Dave, I'm almost certain that Clark used the "clapped out" term in front of the media too, in her usual manly ball-busting voice.
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Jul 24, 2006 14:31:41 GMT 12
In today's Herald, National's Murry McCully is claiming they are "looking into" reinstatement of the Air Combat Wing in conjunction with Australia. Yeah, right Murray; so how many F35s are you looking at? Two, that'll be one each for the two pilots we'll be able to afford. Perhaps he's thinking along the lines of the Aussies basing some here and we fly them at our expense? I've got a brilliant idea however. We ask our new American friend Condo if we can buy a squadron of F16s..... but we could drag our clapped out A4s out of storage and trade them in with the Americans and let THEM sell them!
|
|
|
|
Post by corsair67 on Jul 24, 2006 16:35:34 GMT 12
Maybe McCully's just going to whack them on the National Party Visa???
I think New Zealand would have had more success in selling the Skyhawks by listing them on Ebay, and the commission would have been a hell of a lot less than what they are paying to Ernst and Young too!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 24, 2006 18:01:43 GMT 12
I cannot see any reason why any government could not set the strike wing up again from scratch. It would take a huge capital outlay but it could be done easily enough.
However i don't think any of the curent parties will ever bother. National are just as big a bunch of smegheads as Labour are and have almost as bad a track record in recent years of their administration overseeing the RNZAF. This current ploy with McCully will just be an attempt to sway votes towards them from pensioners and defence minded people. Once in they would announce the plan is unfeasible.
|
|
|
|
Post by Calum on Jul 24, 2006 23:44:05 GMT 12
The biggest problem dave is the slow loss of corporate knowledge. Pilot's and maintenance personnel are the big ones but the ethos of operating fast jets is slowing being lost by the RNZAF. In 5 years time this will be totally gone.
As much as I hated the axing of the RNZAF fast jets I now believe that rather than re-instating Fast jets the money would be better spent adding a decent ASW capabilty to the p-3, getting it a decent ASM. Getting more than 8 NH-90's (12-16) and 2 to 3 more C-130's would be a good start.
The Navy should get 1 or 2 more ANZAC's and get them upgraded along the lines of the RAN's ANZAC WIP...
If there is anything else left then perhaps a Sqn of F-16's would be nice though....
Perhaps NZ could contribute aircrew to the RAAF's Fast jet Sqn's....
|
|
|
|
Post by phil82 on Jul 25, 2006 11:04:11 GMT 12
I'm inclined to agree with Calum; we couldn't run an air combat force now, because the means to do it has gone. The corporate knowhow went when all the experience left to go to the RAF and RAAF. Those pilots are unlikely to come back now because the timing in this phase of their flying careers would be wrong, and besides, would you come back on the basis of a promise from Helen? Likewise, the lineys have mostly gone. The RNZAF has a total strength at present of less than 3000, and that is everybody: regulars, civilians, the RNZAF Band, and ATC staff! We recruited 36 former RAF people to fill jobs we couldn't fill, and they were right across the board. It would take a minimum of five years starting from scratch to get to where we were, even if we had the people to do it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 25, 2006 11:33:34 GMT 12
I fully realise the loss of experience caused by the cutting of the Strike Wing. That has always been my major concern - it was the RNZAF who trained the best aircraft engineering tradespeople in this country, and that alone is markedly reduced by squadron closures and civilianisation of the RNZAF, which has to effect the entire aviation industry.
But I still think if any new Government decided to restart the strike wing function, given enough money and time it could be restored fully. I am not putting any limit on either time or money, both would be considerable.
The RNZAF will still have all the same training manuals and training ethics as before, that infrastructure could easily be reignited. And ubdoubtedly they could muster help from at least some ex-instructors who may take on a short contract to train new instructors if need be. I'm talking ground trades there, flying instructors would be easy to get, through overseas 'exchanges' - the RAAF would be happy to lend a few of their staff to get us back into the game. Plus current younger staff would go on courses at the factory where the new planes come from, just like when any new aircraft is introduced.
New pilots would be easy to get, just a recruiting campaign saying we have all new combat jets would re-ignite the once popular stream of potential recruits to recruiting offices (those they haven't already closed anyway!). In my day about 80% of engineers had gone along to the recruiter hoping to become a jet pilot. That's what the jets did best, they inspired people, and they've been a huge loss to recruiting as your own statement Colin bears out. When these young people found they were unsuitable as pilots they were coaxed by recruiters to take on a different challenge in the RNZAF, but it was usually the jets that had sparked their initial interest.
We have the Maachis sitting there which could go easily back into service, as Hoss isn't fronting up with the cash for them. Skyhawks could also be used in the interum till new fighters or attack aircraft are purchased.
They of course would need to quit the rediculous plan to close Whenuapai too, as there wouldn't be enough airspace at Ohakea for all the squadrons on one base.
It would be very expensive but worth adding to the country's defecit for I think.
|
|
