Strikemaster Crash in Australia

[skyhawkdon]

Anyone know anything? Apparently it happened today near Bathurst, both occupants killed. Was it an ex RNZAF Blunty? Hopefully our Aussie members will know more...

[planeimages]

Two killed in Bathurst jet crash

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October 5, 2006 - 5:14PM
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Two men have been confirmed dead in an aircraft crash in central western NSW, Australian Search and Rescue says.

The Strikemaster aerobatics plane was on a joyflight when it crashed, near Winburndale, about 16km north of Bathurst, about 3.15pm (AEST), authorities say.

The crashed plane ignited a 4ha bushfire in a state forest.

An NRMA CareFlight spokeswoman said an emergency call was placed to their office in Orange by the Australian Search and Rescue (AusSAR).

"I've just spoken to the (CareFlight) pilot," the spokeswoman said.
"He is orbiting a bushfire which is believed to have been started by the downed aircraft."

AusSAR's aviation rescue arm confirmed the Strikemaster aerobatics plane took off from Bathurst airport with two people on board.

A Rural Fire Service spokeswoman said a State Forests aircraft was waterbombing the fire and about 24 firefighters were on the ground.

An AusSAR spokeswoman said an NRMA CareFlight paramedic was winched down to the crash site late this afternoon.

He found two men dead in the wreckage of the aircraft, she said.

The men were on a joyflight out of Bathurst when their Strikemaster aerobatics plane crashed in remote bushland at Winburndale, about 16km north of Bathurst.

The crashed plane ignited a four hectare bushfire in the Turon State Forest.
An NRMA CareFlight spokeswoman said an emergency call was placed to their office in Orange by AusSAR about 3.15pm (AEST) today.

A Rural Fire Service (RFS) spokeswoman said a State Forests aircraft was waterbombing the fire and about 24 firefighters were on the ground.

From SMH. Nothing on the TV as yey but will see what the news brings.

[planeimages]

This is their web address. www.excapades.com.au/product.php?id=323

[planeimages]

Careflight Helio pilot (Ken) suggests that the A/C broke up in flight. The tail was found about a mile from the main wreckage. He expressed a fairly negative opinion of "Warbirds" and maintenance. Wouldn't allow any member of his family to ride in one.

The crash stated a bushfire and was in the Turon area north of Bathurst.

Sad business all round.

[scurvy]

I took a Stikemaster flight with this company in May this year.
Aircraft I was in was ex-NZ6371 (VH-ONP) and Ex-Singaporean AF ser# 315 (VH-AKY) was our dogfight "Opponent". Nick, the pilot believed to have lost his life yesterday. piloted VH-AKY. The company also owns ex NZ 6363 (VH-JFZ).

If the aircraft still have the same paint job as when I was there in May then yesterdays fatality involved VH-AKY (ex-singaporean) as it was the only one they had with red tip-tanks which I saw on the news footage.

UPDATE : as a postscript the company did own some JetProvost Mk5s that had red and white paint work so I guess there is a slim chance it was one of those and not VH-AKY.


The ejection seats in these aircraft have been disabled as per aus civil aviation rules (post script edit : turns out there is no CASA rule against ejection seats as long as they are maintained to spec) and a auto chute system is installed (inverted bail out procedure). However, as it appears they were in the "low level stike" part of the "mission" and the aircraft appears to have broken up in the air there would have been little time to exit the aircraft even if the seats were enabled. News reports say both pilot and passenger were found dead, still in the aircraft.

Very sad indeed.

post script - these flights offer an in flight video recording so I guess the only real hope of knowing exacty what happened may be this tape, if it was being recorded and if it survived.

Also, the bushfire may not have been started by the crash. Aerial firefighters were in the area at the time fighting an existing fire and they spotted the crash site, so its not clear if the aircraft burned. The news footage I saw had no evidence of fire, only showed clearly one complete wing fully detached and another tip tank separated from the other wing, no other recognizable debris but lots of it.

For the Blunty fans I have some photos of the aircraft and in flight video clips of my flight at :

www.globalsatsol.com/ajm/BAC167Strikemaster/StrikeMaster.html

[phil]

If a jet has a seat it may as well be armed, there are people around qualified to maintain them, Glen Turner runs an ejection seat servicing company that services seats all around the world.

It is a real shame, the seats may well have got them out in time, who knows? The PB4 fitted to the blunty isn't exactly the latest and greatest, but it is still a good seat, and more than capable of getting the aircrew out and under a canopy, even at zero feet, as long as there is at least 90 knots forward airspeed.

It is irresponsible of both the operators and the CAA to avoid the issue of live seats by putting it in the too hard basket. If you are going to operate a jet with a seat, you should have a live seat fitted, they are not there for decoration. It is like driving a rally car and not wearing a safety harness, hoping the odds work in your favour and you don't hit anything. It is very unfortunate that this is an example of what happens when the odds don't work out.

[scurvy]

I'm not a pilot but if I was the idea of having an untrained, probably nervous paying punter in an aircraft with me and a live ejection seat system would terrify me. You couldnt possibly leave the decision and the ability to eject in the hands of the passenger independant from the pilot in this situation could you?
I'm only familiar with the operation of "hollywood" type seat systems but it just a "pull up on this metal loop thats between your legs and your out"
sort of thing isnt it?

[Calum]

phil said:

If a jet has a seat it may as well be armed, there are people around qualified to maintain them, Glen Turner runs an ejection seat servicing company that services seats all around the world.

It is a real shame, the seats may well have got them out in time, who knows? The PB4 fitted to the blunty isn't exactly the latest and greatest, but it is still a good seat, and more than capable of getting the aircrew out and under a canopy, even at zero feet, as long as there is at least 90 knots forward airspeed.

It is irresponsible of both the operators and the CAA to avoid the issue of live seats by putting it in the too hard basket. If you are going to operate a jet with a seat, you should have a live seat fitted, they are not there for decoration. It is like driving a rally car and not wearing a safety harness, hoping the odds work in your favour and you don't hit anything. It is very unfortunate that this is an example of what happens when the odds don't work out.

I think the operators would be keen. I expect CASA is the problem. They aren't the most pro active organisation on the planet.

[compasscall]

The thought of flying in any aircraft equipped with a disabled ejection seat would terrify me. The makers put it there for a very good reason - to save life!

Apart from that, trying to get out of a Strikemaster, in a hurry, wearing a parachute would be bl**dy difficult. It is bad enough on the ground when there is no rush. There is very little room between the canopy and windscreen.

At least here in the UK the CAA (Company Against Aviation) allows ejection seats to be 'live' and we do have qualified people to service them.

My condolences go to the family and friends of the crew - RIP.


CC

[scurvy]

planeimages said:

This is their web address. www.excapades.com.au/product.php?id=323

That isnt the company involved, thats a victorian operator, I think they have ex NZ6361 (vh-zep).

The Bathurst based operation involved is at www.jetfighterflights.com

[phil]

scurvy said:

I'm not a pilot but if I was the idea of having an untrained, probably nervous paying punter in an aircraft with me and a live ejection seat system would terrify me. You couldnt possibly leave the decision and the ability to eject in the hands of the passenger independant from the pilot in this situation could you?
I'm only familiar with the operation of "hollywood" type seat systems but it just a "pull up on this metal loop thats between your legs and your out"
sort of thing isnt it?

That's not that far removed from giving groundies a joy ride in the air force, and I can't recall any fool pulling the handle accidentally.

It does take about 20lbs of force to pull the handle from it's housing, and another 5 to pull the sear.

I'd be terrified flying in a de-armed seat. So much so that I would not do it.

The whole reason ejection seats were developed was because a/c were travelling too fast to allow manual egress in an emergency. The increased speed also led to increased tail height, and many pilots were unable to get out, or if they did they collected the tail and were either killed or knocked out and couldn't deploy their parachute. Sir James Martin started to develop the ejection seat after his partner, Capt. Valentine Baker was killed testing one of their a/c designs. Sir James was very upset that his friend was unable to get out of the a/c sucessfully, and decided that an assisted form of escape was required. Interestingly, the basic design of Martin Baker seats has changed little in the 60 years since they were invented. They have been considerably refined, and the latest versions have electronic sensors that detect airspeed and select the appropriate ejection mode, but they all still have the same features.

With the increase in public ownership of Jet powered warbirds, CASA, CAA etc really need to sort themselves out. There is no difference between an licensed aircraft engineer having a rating for an engine type and having a rating for an ejection seat. The skills are out there, and MB support their seats. They are very expensive to maintain, since MB charge like a wounded bull for every little thing, but the alternatives, as witnessed in this incident, justifies the expense. If operators cant afford to have their live seats maintained, they shouldn't be flying the aircraft.

[xr6turbo1]

Yip, I wouldnt really want to fly an aircraft like that without an ejector seat if it was deisgined in the first place to have them.
I have flown in some high performance WW2 fighters and have had a parachute on and although I havent had to parachute out of an aircraft it is comforting to know its there.
I am not sure exactly how I would have gone if I had to have jumped out but would have donemy best and an ejector seat should be there for the same reason. No one plans to use one but its better to be able to have a chance of escaping if the need should arrive.
Tragic to hear about the Strikemater crash.

[skyhawkdon]

Are you sure there are no airworthy Warbird jets in Australia with live seats? I know Glen Turner has been over there and serviced Hawker Hunter seats in various parts of the country. Check out his web site at www.egresssystemsnz.com/ - in the "Aircraft we have worked on" section there are a couple of Australian Hunters listed there. I believe Glen was also helping CASA write the rules around maintenance of live seats, just like he did for the CAA here in NZ.

I agree that a live bang seat is better than not having one at all. I guess it is an expense that is hard for some owners to justify. Not only is there the basic seat to maintain, but also the parachute, life raft and MDC on the canopy.

In most 2-seaters the system can be set up so that either pilot can command eject both seats.

Regarding a possible in flight structure failure, I wonder if the wings on the ex Singaporian Blunty had been replaced? That was why the RNZAF Blunties were retired after only 20 years service - the wings were badly fatigued. Six aircraft had new wings fitted in the late 80's and I suspect that they will be the ones still flying as Warbirds today. Any with their original wings still fitted wouldn't be allowed to fly.

[paddy]

Hi everyone,
If you want to know why seats should be live and why you should use it listen to the youtube Video linked below. It's the most horrifying audio I've ever heard.

Regards

[Calum]

skyhawkdon said:

Are you sure there are no airworthy Warbird jets in Australia with live seats? I know Glen Turner has been over there and serviced Hawker Hunter seats in various parts of the country. Check out his web site at www.egresssystemsnz.com/ - in the "Aircraft we have worked on" section there are a couple of Australian Hunters listed there. I believe Glen was also helping CASA write the rules around maintenance of live seats, just like he did for the CAA here in NZ.

\
Don , you obviousily have dealt with with CASA ;D

If they are writing the rules it will be years before we see them. The use of NVG's is a classic case in point.

There are no aircraft (on the civil register) allowed to fly here with live seats.

Just

[Calum]

phil said:

I'd be terrified flying in a de-armed seat. So much so that I would not do it.

Why? It's no different from going for a joy flight in a Cessna 172... You don't get a parachute in those ;D

phil said:

With the increase in public ownership of Jet powered warbirds, CASA, CAA etc really need to sort themselves out. There is no difference between an licensed aircraft engineer having a rating for an engine type and having a rating for an ejection seat.

Agreed 100%

phil said:

The skills are out there, and MB support their seats. They are very expensive to maintain, since MB charge like a wounded bull for every little thing, but the alternatives, as witnessed in this incident, justifies the expense. If operators cant afford to have their live seats maintained, they shouldn't be flying the aircraft.

And this may be the kicker. Operators maybe happy to accept the risk of not having a live seat.

[phil]

calum said:

phil said:

I'd be terrified flying in a de-armed seat. So much so that I would not do it.

Why? It's no different from going for a joy flight in a Cessna 172... You don't get a parachute in those ;D

And I don't go flying in those either. Although they tend to be less prone to falling appart...

[scurvy]

Just to clarify the identity of the three stikemasters owned by the company involved:

VH-AKY Bathurst Jet Fighter Flights Mk-84 Ser 315 Singapore AF
VH-JFZ Bathurst Jet Fighter Flights Mk-88 NZ6363 NZAF
VH-ONP Bathurst Jet Fighter Flights Mk-88 NZ6371 NZAF

As I mentioned before VH-AKY was the only one of the three with red tip-tanks when I took a flight
in VH-ONP in May this year. VH-AKY flew with us that day on the "dogfighting" part of the flight.
So unless they have been repainted since then, the red tip-tanks and grey underside of wing I saw on the news belongs to VH-AKY, the ex singaporean aircraft.

I can confirm 100% that the seats in these three aircraft are disabled, and the MDC canopys have been replaced with conventional ones. The procedure is inverted bail-out with auto chutes.

I've trawled through CASA and NTSB sites this morning and found little mention of ejection seats apart from
a reference to them regarding the fatal mig15 crash in Canberra ages ago. There it states they CAN be used in civil aircraft like warbirds but ONLY if they are maintained correctly. However this is from 1996.

Personally I had no reservations about flying in the strikemaster even though I knew about the fatigue issues beforehand. Statistically speaking I put myself at far greater risk doing the drive to bathurst and then back to sydney.
However, I can afford to be philisophical about taking risks because I have no dependents and my family and everyone that knows me knows I enjoy doing things that sometimes carry considerable risks. Had the worst happened on the day I was there, I would have exited the world in a far better way than a lot of other ways to die and the people left behind would already know thats how I looked at the risk. I was certainly aware that we would almost definately die if something happened during the low level portion of the flight as there was NO WAY you could do any sort of manual bail out at those heights if there was total loss of control in the aircraft. Maybe just maybe may the pilot would get out but as a passenger I dont think I would have had near enough time to even get out of the thing let alone face a bail out at 250-500 feet. Would a chute even open enough at that sort of height?

Also, before my flight I checked out the pilots bio's, those guys are ex-millitary and \or commercial pilots and have thousand of hours.
I figured they wouldnt fly the things if they considered the risk too high.
These guys owned and flew the aircraft, they surely wouldnt dud themselves on maintenance.

UPDATE : as a postscript the company did own some JetProvost Mk5s that had red and white paint work so I guess there is a slim chance it was one of those and not VH-AKY.

[Glen T]

Hi Gents,
As Don has mentioned I have had some involvement with E seats in Australia so I should clarify a few points from your discussions. It is always a sad and difficult time when people are lost from an aircraft accident and this instance is no different. My condolences also to the families and associates.

Firstly, in AU&NZ it is the a/c owners decision if he/she wants live egress systems. But they must provide documentation that the system has been serviced and fitted by competent personnel. This generally would be a manufactures servicing course, or official Maintenance Approval issued by NZCAA (as in my case). When I approached the NZCAA in 1996/7 for the Hunter seat, they did not have rules governing live civilian egress systems because no one had asked, so I wrote a set of rules, submitted them and they published them. I understand that the UK and CASA have no similar rules however. But the NZ one is published on the NZCAA website and can be accessed - and copied by other authorities if they wanted to !!!

I visited Nick Costin at Bankstown one day in mid 1997 and spent several hours discussing with him the possibility of helping him with making his seats live if he required. He had decided that the seats would remain 'cold' and had fitted a slimline Russian sport parachute to the seat while ensuring there was a canopy jettison system active to allow a clear way for inverted aircraft evacuation. I have had no contact with him since.

Also during that time I visited Mr Dave Currie at Archerfield and offered to help with his two seat Hunter. To assist in that matter I met with a CASA officer in the Archerfield offices and discussed live egress systems. They were not against warbird aircraft having live systems, but did require the right personnel to do the job with a recognised qualification. Eventually Dave hired an Amberley based armourer to complete that work, but he did approach me again in 2001 to sign the aircraft seats off using my NZ Maintenance Approval. CASA accepted my qualifications with no problems and as far as I know this aircraft was still flying with a live system until the day of its wheels up landing earlier this year.

Late in 2001 I serviced Geoff Moeskars single seat Hunters system in order for the aircraft to be hired by a private contractor and used for a demonstration to the Navy in Nowra as to the suitability of a fleet of Hunters to replace the RNZAF A4's. Alas though the demonstration did not go ahead, and I believe the carts were removed, and the seat remains 'cold' in that aircraft.

The jets at Temora - Canberra and Meteor, have live seats with future upgrades for other aircraft planned.

I donot know of any other aircraft in AU with live systems, while Dave Phillips Hunter ZK-JIL is the only live system in a NZ a/c. Though I am currently working on putting a live system in the F86 for Jerry Yagen at Ardmore's AVSPEC's.

Airflite are the private company in Australia that are commercially servicing ejection seat systems for the RAAF and have been servicing the Macchi 339CB seats for the RNZAF in order to keep the a/c ready for sale. These are serviced every two years as per Martin Baker recommendations.
Seatstar are a private company based in the UK that service Warbird aircraft seats in the Uk and abroad - with an MB qualification, but there are also other private people with experience but no official qualifications that service and install seats in aircraft in the UK and undoubtably overseas.

My ultimate aim is to work full time on warbird aircraft egress systems where ever that may take me... dreams are still free fortunately !!!

I hope this clarifies a few things from the above thread.
Regards
Glen

[phil]

Nice of you to pop in Glen!

How's JEMS going?