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Post by aeromedia on Jul 19, 2012 14:16:01 GMT 12
My advice armchair experts, treat every airshow you have the priviledge to see as a miracle that all things being equal probably shouldn't happen, then sit back and enjoy whatever people who couple passion with action manage to come up with. Be grateful and enjoy !
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Post by skyhawkdon on Jul 19, 2012 15:08:00 GMT 12
Hear hear!
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Post by nuuumannn on Jul 19, 2012 15:48:16 GMT 12
Yes, yes, indeed we should, but we are the ones that spend our hard earned cash on attending these events and if we don't enjoy a particular aspect of them, then we should be able to at the very least comment on it. Go to the RNZAF airshow at Ohakea page to see how many people commented on the access issues. I used to work at airshows and help run them and I saw first hand what happens when people are not happy with things - they vote with their feet. The way to bring them back is by being clever with what you offer. We also had big competition with local activities to tempt people away from our show, so we had to reinvent what we were doing every now and then to keep it fresh. Don't worry, I've already talked to them about this before anyone suggests it! As for armchair experts; if you can't be one on a forum like this, then where else can you be one? 
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Post by nuuumannn on Jul 19, 2012 15:58:24 GMT 12
That's the point, isn't it. How many photos of ZK-TAF (and endless Harvaaaards) do we all have in our collections - as neat as it is to see these?
The enthusiasts like us will go regardless, so the airshow organisers don't have to aim their marketing at us. It's the ones that "...went a few years ago and thought it was expensive so won't go this year", or "I can watch it from the hill" that you have to target to get back through the gate and part with their money. This latter lot is the hardest to convince to go and at Omaka there are lots of hills to watch the airshow from.
If you can get this lot through the gate, you are doing well - its like the AHC itself; you want repeat visitors rather than just hedging your bets on tourists and enthusiasts, so you have to entice the general public back in. In Scotland they used to call it the "HM Yacht Britannia Syndrome", because once you've been once, why would you need to go back?
Airshows and museums/places like the AHC are visitor attractions and compete for the public's attention (and money) with things like going to Pollard Park (in Blenheim) or the beach or the shopping mall for the afternoon, so you have to be clever with your product.
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Post by TS on Jul 20, 2012 13:39:54 GMT 12
Have to agree nuuumannn with out upsetting the hardcore  .Goodnest knows Im most probably one of those. But I feel that there does need to be some sort of rejig "But What"??or things will/could get stale for the average joe bloggs airshow attendees. (Ducking for cover)  |
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Post by nuuumannn on Jul 20, 2012 14:50:26 GMT 12
Yep Wasapilot, here's another way to look at it. I remember in the 1980/90s I was into the band U2 and I remember when they released the Joshua Tree and then the Rattle and Hum tour and Achtung Baby, three things that skyrocketed them into superstardom and made the band the most successful at that time. Then they made Zooropa, that was okay, but a bit lacking in some ways after Achtung Baby, but then they did Pop, which was rubbish.
I heard an interview at the time from one of the band members on how disappointing people found the album and he indicated as much that people would buy anything they did because they were so popular! That, of course was like a red rag to a bull and people got quite shitty with them, including myself - what a crap attitude.
Despite the great things that have happened here in NZ with regards to aviation preservation over the last ten years or so, event organisers can't afford to just put on whatever to entertain us. They still need to think a bit more.
Thankfully at the moment we have some really great things happening to keep things interesting, like the Anson and the Mosquito, the return of the Avenger, the remarkable TVAL the prospect of a Tempest flying here and the increasing number of jets getting about. These will keep the airshow organisers happy because they add a different element to the line up.
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Post by TS on Jul 20, 2012 16:38:53 GMT 12
With the above rock group U2 in mind maybe a Themed Airshow might be getting a little thin and could be making a rod for the organisers backs?? Especially when they choose Americas Coming. Because I feel once again that the average punter may be expecting to see something Heavy, (which would be FANTASTIC but very expensive.) If they pay their entrance fee and only see the "usual" with only the addition of Stars and stripes with nose art to boot then they may well not return. Look personally I think they have been doing an awesome job so far. I am not judging them by any stretch of the imagination, its one hell of an event to pull off and to do it well AS they have done so far. BUT............  Heres a laugh get all punters to turn up in period costume. What the hell we would all feel part of the show then. We would be all to busy cracking up at each other and not notice the same aircraft. OK OK I will shut up now it is Friday after all and its time for a beer!! |
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Post by lumpy on Jul 20, 2012 18:15:48 GMT 12
I guess I'm perhaps not the "average punter " , but for what its worth I'd buy a gold pass just to see a repeat of last years show ! A theme just gives the show a bit of focus , particually with non flying displays ( such as cars , ground theatre , music etc ) . I do see the arguement that the format could be at risk of getting a bit " stale " ( in some peoples eyes ) , but for me , I know I'll go away happy ! ( so long as it doesnt rain ) ! |
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Post by typerated on Jul 20, 2012 20:02:25 GMT 12
Omaka is a great show for aircraft but sadly let down by the ground theatre.
What a load of pointless amateur drivel.
I think they should stick to the concept of a 'air show'! as that is superb - I personally enjoy the flying at Omaka more than Wanaka
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Post by corsair67 on Jul 21, 2012 0:00:33 GMT 12
I guess that no matter where you are, it's easy to become 'bored' with whatever is appearing at local airshows. I was speaking to a friend of mine in the US about a month ago, and he was 'complaining' that he'd been to an number of US airshows over there recently and was a bit disappointed with the line up of P-51 Mustangs, F4U Corsairs, P-47 Thunderbolts, P-40 Kittyhawks, P-38 Lightnings, F6F Hellcats, B-25 Mitchells, B-17 Flying Fortresses, a B-29 Superfortress, F-86 Sabres, F-22 Raptors, F-15 Eagles (C, D and E), F-16 Fighting Falcons, B-2 Spirits, B1 Lancers, A-10 Thunderbolt IIs, F-4 Phantoms, F/A-18 Hornets (Supers and Classics), EA-6B Prowlers, B-52 Stratofortresses, plus everything else they see over there at most airshows! I was literally speechless..............which doesn't happen often...........and would probably give my left one to see any of those aircraft at an airshow!  |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 21, 2012 1:21:04 GMT 12
Oh how I hate to read threads like this... so, airshows in NZ have become stale and samey?? What? Are you serious?!?
The New Zealand airshow scene is one of the most dynamic and innovative in the world. For a small nation with a much smaller airshow community, it never ceases to astound me the amount that is happening continually to make our airshow scene better and better for us, the enthusiastic viewing public.
Before making any further criticism or supposedly 'informed' comment about the NZ scene getting stale, think about what has happened over the past few years on our airshow scene. Not only have we been treated to such wonderful regular sights and sounds of all the favourite warbird types, but we have seen many unique events such as seven Fokker Triplanes in the air at once, three SE5a fighters in the air together, the unique Lavochkin LA-9, not to mention such things as the Albatros, Sopwith, Avro and Fokker fighter variants, and many other WWI types, and the unique Fe2 and the genuine Avro 504K and Be2c, etc.
We have seen a Tomahawk displayed last year, one of just three flying in the world I believe. Actually the sight of three P-40's in the air together, which I have been pleased to witness in both 2006 and 2011, have been wonderful experiences! Did you realise this seldom happens anywhere in the world, not even in the USA?! It is one of the 'big things' at this year's upcoming Oshkosh show that they hope to get three P-40 variants along, if they can. Makes you think, huh?
Let's not forget there's a lot more to come on our scene too, with the newly flying Anson Mk 1 and the Fw190 back in the air, a Strikemaster now a regular favourite and will soon be joined by a second example. We have the Mosquito about to make its international display debut here in NZ, and that will be followed by at least two other Mosquito rebuild projects in years to come. We cannot forget that there will soon be a Hawker Tempest flying in NZ too. The Spitfire XIVe will soon join the two Mk IX's flying too, and make an interesting addition. There are several more P-40's and a P-36 Hawk under restoration. In the very near future will be a new Venom. There is apparently a third Dakota coming to NZ too. We can expect lots more WWI types joining the airshow circuit too, and not just from TVAL.
Anyone who thinks that the scene is stale must either not actually live in NZ, or perhaps attends shows far too often and have become someone who never sees the forest for the trees. Take a step back and think about it.
Believe me, there is a huge knowledge gap between what the average member of the public who attend airshows knows about an airshow (or thinks they know), and what actually goes into creating that airshow.
In fact at an airshow you will see an aircraft take off, display for maybe five minutes, and land. Many of you will watch and be thoroughly satisfied, thrilled, absorbed and enamoured by the display. Others will be too busy reading the programme, buying fast food, looking at the ground displays or chasing their runaway kids, or whatever. And a few will watch and feel disappointed because they watched the same pilot display the same aircraft last year and they have not experienced anything new from it despite paying to see the show... well that pilot may well be the aircraft's owner. He/she has likely started off at an airshow as an enthusiast just like you, they have enjoyed watching displays and have determined that someday they will be involved themselves. They have planned and scrimped and saved and purchased an aircraft, or a share in one. They have planned and scrimped and saved and have purchased the necessary training lessons to get them up to speed on the type, perhaps there was a succession of types they have had to go through to work up to simply flying their warbird or classic or aerobatic type. They have done the hard yards upping their skills in tail draggers, and then in formation flying, and in aerobatics, and then display routine flying. Every practice has cost them hundreds of dollars in fuel costs. On top of that is the maintenance costs incurred with regular use of the aircraft to work up their display routine. There are also all the incidentals that go along with it, like hangarage fees, insurance, club fees, oil, replacement parts during routine maintenance, their travel costs to and from the airport, and more, but they don't mind because they love it. They are passionate about it because they have been inspired and want to pass on that feeling to others at future airshows. They will debut their display and if it is a hit with the crowd and/or organisers they may be asked to do it again at future events. Each time they do so more practice sessions are required, and each time they strive to make it a little better, more thrilling, more precise, so for the people on the ground, it looks good.
I have to wonder how those pilots who have worked so hard and invested so much money and time feel when they come here and read such disheartening comments from the armchair experts who think a finely polished, generally much loved display routine which is looked forward to by most airshow attendees, should be simply brushed off as samey and stale, and replaced the next year. Especially when these experts demand that change for the sake of change should come because they have paid a few dollars for the entry ticket and have the right to all new thrills - your ticket price will never cover the expense outlaid by each and every one of the pilots and owners who are there displaying for your benefit!
Think too about the work that goes on behind the scenes to get an aircraft to the airshow in the first place. A number of the high profile, popular warbird types have had to undergo engine changes and overhauls in recent times - BIG BUCKS!!! - some have had repaints and touch ups, and a myriad of regular maintenance goes into getting them ready to fly as the airshow season approaches. Often long distances have to be flown to get to an airshow so it can perform that five minute slot. The airshow-going public usually has no idea too that many warbirds have often had to borrow parts from other projects simply to get it airborne and to the show that the owner/pilot has promised to attend, and this means that the owner or the maintainer has to chase around finding those parts and using up favours to get the use of them. This is fact, I know of several warbirds that have flown at airshows with borrowed bits.
All too often the maintenance crew/rebuilders have worked on weekends and long into nights and early hours, sacrificing their leisure and family time, to get an aeroplane back together so you can see it fly on the day. Do they get any thanks? Usually very little, their part is quickly forgotten if known at all.
The reality is that at any given time for any airshow organising team there is a budget they must work to, and a certain number of local aircraft they can draw from to add into their display. That number of aircraft has grown in size and also in exotic diversity over past years, but the bottom line is that it will almost certainly mean that any airshow will have a core cast of warbirds/classics that happened to also be seen at the last show. But does that really matter?
There was a time in this country when all air pageants had a core line up of DH60 Moths, and very little else. In my lifetime it has developed from Harvards being the drawcard stars of an airshow to being chorus line members behind the megastar fighters.
There has been a lot of development and innovation, and there will be more, but I don't think anyone has the right to say that they demand more, bigger, better and imported visiting aircraft. Bringing an aircraft to New Zealand from anywhere will be an expensive business. Freight, insurance, reassembly, test flying, hangarage, fuel, pilots rated on type and their accommodation, the expenses soon mount up. So the idea that because a Zero and a Wildcat have been brought from the USA before, it should be easy to bring a Sunderland, a B-17 or for goodness sake a B-29, is simply stupid. It's not going to happen unless ticket prices go up to the $250 mark, for everyone not just the privileged few grandstand lurkers. And those bomber types cannot operate from most airfields anyway.
As for the idea that Classic Fighters lacks innovation and ideas to make things different, in 2007 they re-enacted several films which the public could relate to, from Battle of Britain to Tora, Tora, Tora to Apocolypse Now to The Blue Max. In 2009 they re-enacted the bombing of the monestary at Monte Cassino, Italy, which was spectacular. In 2011 they blew up a massive V-2 rocket replica. Are you really seriously saying this is boring and same old, same old? I'ce not seen this sort of thing anywhere else.
Baz, I like the idea you had of an artillery strike on an Auster.
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Post by hairy on Jul 21, 2012 1:49:39 GMT 12
+1 What Dave said ^^  |
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Post by spitfire14 on Jul 21, 2012 2:21:43 GMT 12
Hear hear Dave! Personally I just enjoy going to airshows and seeing the Warbirds being flown by the skilled pilots we have here in New Zealand. The sights and sounds....I get a kick out of it every time.
My heartfelt thanks to all those who put so much effort into organising the wonderful, world-class airshows we are privileged to see here in New Zealand.
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Post by nuuumannn on Jul 21, 2012 4:12:46 GMT 12
Wow, Dave, that was epic!
As for your comments on the NZ airshow scene, I couldn't agree more and yes, the movie themed Omaka show was brilliant - really enjoyed it, so the Italian theme was something of a disappointment, I felt, although the show itself was enjoyable.
For heaven's sake don't get me wrong, Dave; I'm not for a minute saying the NZ scene is getting stale, but airshow organisers have to think more about the public's perception of what they see based on all the things you pointed out. The general public is more often than not, not really cognisant of the effort that goes into a show, a flying display, an engine change etc.
The majority of people will go to an airshow and go home satisfied, but there is a percentage who wont and I know for a fact that in Blenheim there are many who are of the examples I stated in my early post. My point is that to entice these people back - and this is a test of the Marketing Manager's art - the organisers need to be real clever, they shouldn't feel like they can do whatever they want because their event is popular. I feel like I'm repeating myself here.
One thing you didn't cover in your rather spectacular rant, Dave was actual organising of the event itself. For months before the show, you spend your time making phone calls to complete strangers who have no interest whatsoever in what it is you are trying to achieve and won't give you what you want for nothing, attending endless meetings where half the time people just want to talk about themselves (aargh! Happened at meetings I attended at an airshow in this country I did a bit of work for!), writing proposals, designing posters, leaflets, Arranging press interviews with people who have no idea what a "maritime patrol aircraft" does, more meetings, debating the merits/down sides of re-anactors, calling said re-anactors and telling them their services are not required this year because of the budget... Briefing staff and volunteers - the latter just interested in finding out when they get to see the flying displays in between what it is they should be doing, more meetings! Arguing with stall holders who have been moved from their favourite spot, trying to get more money from sponsors, ringing a guy with an aeroplane who wasn't originally going to be on the display list because yet another aircraft cancelled on you... And then closer to the big day/days slogging it out getting the site ready.
On the show days, you are so busy attempting to run your little corner of the universe you don't get to see a single thing of the show, so when someone comes up to and says, "Wow! Did you see the blah blah blah do blah blah blah?" You just have to bite your tongue and pointedly say "No mate, I didn't!"
The best place to spend an airshow is the commentary box. Not only do you get to see the whole display, but you get the best seat in the house. The down side is that you can't leave at all until the display is over, unless ther is a break in displays. One of the best techniques to get a rest is by putting on music to a display, or bringing out the ole "...now listen to the wonderful sound of the Rolls Royce Merlin..." and you can have a bite to eat and get an update from the Display Director before the next aircraft is talked in...
Sigh... I miss working airshows...
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Post by aeromedia on Jul 21, 2012 7:05:05 GMT 12
Dave, you summed it up perfectly. IMHO you wrote one of the most significant comments ever posted on this forum. If I may proffer one or two observations, I attended this years Warbirds Over Wanaka. There was nothing there I hadn't seen before. I enjoyed it tremendously! Maybe it was because it was because it was the first air show I had attended since 1996 that I had no obligations or direct involvement. But I soaked it all up and enjoyed every single minute of it. Regarding other comments posted here re Omaka. I think their themes have been outstanding and I punched the air when I saw the artwork for "The Yanks Are Coming". It's just a theme to sell a product and didn't immediately conjure up a squadron of B17's and little friends over Fairhall next Easter. To Joe and Josephine air shows are just "planes" it's only the enthusiasts who can decipher the difference between V12 fighters etc. Enthusiasts needs are important, but only part of the mix. Balance has to be sought and to quote the lawyer in The Castle, it's the overall "vibe of the thing" that counts. Of course we enthusiasts celebrate fresh restorations and new types on the scene but when it comes to putting on a show, let's not get hung up on it. If I was living next to Bruntingthorpe watching cold war era jets come and go every day in the 70's, the SAME types every day, I'm pretty sure I WOULDN'T have tired of it.
This is an open forum and all points of view are encouraged, but I would say this. Be aware when letting your free speech flow, that one day some of those individuals who restore and own exotic warbird aircraft and some of those who read forums like this and who offer their services voluntarily to make shows happen might decide "why bother"? It can be a fine line between constructive criticism and burning people off altogether.
I've been invited to be involved in a couple of forthcoming aviation events and my enthusiasm to be involved is increasingly tempered with an awareness that I'm potentially setting myself up for criticism.
Ah well, time to take another concrete pill maybe .............
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Post by corsairarm on Jul 21, 2012 7:59:21 GMT 12
All I know is that I will be attending Omaka for the first time next year and really looking forward to it. The highlight for will be the FW190 and Anson. If something comes from overseas then that will be the icing on the cake.
To all those behind the scenes working their ring pieces off to make it happen a big THANKYOU.
My last comment is this. One the THE best displays I have scene, at Wanaka, wasn't even warbirds. It was the team from Wanganui Aerowork and their Fletchers.
See you at Omaka.
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Post by baz62 on Jul 21, 2012 9:21:29 GMT 12
Baz, I like the idea you had of an artillery strike on an Auster. Well said Dave aboutthe airshow scene in NZ. Thosugh folks I thought I had turned Dave on to the idea of enjoying the sight of an Auster displaying at an airshow. Then I re-read his comment. Hang on? Artillery strike ON an Auster? Sigh. Back to the drawing board where I am designing rocket rails for my Auster, then I can go Homewood hunting. Heh heh heh. Whats that wooshing sound Dave? BOOM BOOM! |
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Post by nuuumannn on Jul 21, 2012 14:38:58 GMT 12
 I can't wait to see the Anson and Mosquito at Omaka next year (and the Auster!) Classic British aircraft that'll be taking centre stage - deservedly so... |
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Post by ngatimozart on Jul 21, 2012 17:07:21 GMT 12
Very well said Dave.
Is there going to be a Mosquito at Omaka? Flying? I thought the Avspecs one is going to the US.
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Post by gunny on Jul 21, 2012 20:41:59 GMT 12
I agree Dave but if we remove our planespotters anoraks for a moment, i think most of the subject was how to keep the "normal" public coming who do not know much about aircraft and can't tell the diff between a spitfire IV to a V or a P-51 from a A-36 (laffin at myself there) This majority is what have to be appeased even if themes like itallians mentioned before had no itallian a/c but Joe public did not know/care but they are (apparently) the majority where the much needed funds come from and rather than "themes" something else is needed each year to make it better, but alas in N.Z it is so good each year it can not be topped year after year. Just my 2c worth on the general vibe of the thred, but hey i may be wrong (as my wife always says i am) Mossie this year next year the other 2?? then year after a lanc... ahhhh dreams are free. |
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.Goodnest knows Im most probably one of those. But I feel that there does need to be some sort of rejig "But What"??or things will/could get stale for the average joe bloggs airshow attendees. (Ducking for cover) 
