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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 13, 2013 16:08:36 GMT 12
Maybe but it's also one of the things you have to deal with. They have a job to do and the officer prosecuting you most likely was ordered to or in civilian speak intsructed to; detailed off is an Americanism that would describe it.
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thax
Warrant Officer
Posts: 31
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Post by thax on Apr 13, 2013 17:58:48 GMT 12
t is important to note that the military summary justice system is 'inquisitorial', not 'adversarial' (as is the case in civil courts). It is about presenting facts, not attacking witnesses or the accused. The presenting officer is not trying to prosecute the accused as such, he/she is simply required to present the evidence in support of the charge.
All summary proccedings are conducted by serving NZDF officers or NCOs. While lawyers (NZDF or otherwise) are permitted to provide guidance to the DISCO, PRESO and DEFO, they are not permitted to participate in the actual proceedings. If a charge goes to court martial (either by referral or by election) the procedure is (usually) conducted by legal professionals. and the court itself includes a judge (as well as military members)
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Post by flyjoe180 on Apr 16, 2013 16:03:37 GMT 12
Very interesting, thanks for clarifying the system for us. So it is more of an investigative system rather than one of prosecution. Let's hope that whatever comes out of it helps to make the systems in place safer and more robust.
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junior
Flight Lieutenant
Wibble
Posts: 95
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Post by junior on Apr 16, 2013 17:48:19 GMT 12
[glow=red,2,300]Not guilty verdict in Iroquois crash hearing[/glow]The airman accused of negligence over the fatal Anzac Day helicopter crash at Pukerua Bay has been found not guilty. Flight Lieutenant Daniel Pezaro was the formation leader of the three Iroquois helicopters flying to Wellington from Ohakea for a ceremonial fly-past early on April 25, 2010. One of the aircraft crashed in thick cloud, killing Flight Lieutenant Hayden Madsen, 33, Flying Officer Dan Gregory, 28, and Corporal Ben Carson, 25. A fourth crew member, Sergeant Stevin Creeggan, survived with serious injuries. Pezaro was charged that, as the lead pilot in a formation, he negligently failed to abort the transit flight near Paraparaumu. Disciplinary officer Wing Commander Shaun Sexton made his decision to acquit Pezaro after about seven hours of deliberation at the end of four days of summary proceedings. During the course of the hearing, Pezaro's charge was amended to narrow its focus to failing to abort the transit flight, not the mission overall. In a short statement after the verdict, Pezaro said he had been haunted by the events of that day. A great result.
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Post by machpants on Apr 16, 2013 18:23:12 GMT 12
Indeed the right result, I hope that the hard won lessons in Flight Safety have been taken on board up and down the chain of command.
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Post by ngatimozart on Apr 16, 2013 18:24:24 GMT 12
A very good and correct result.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 16, 2013 23:41:45 GMT 12
I'm just waiting for Ben Carson's family to come out of the woodwork to have their say............again. I'm sure they'll be ringing the media to tell everyone what they think of this verdict.
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Post by mowgli on Apr 18, 2013 17:38:36 GMT 12
The RNZAF sat on the COI report for nearly a year before release. The investigation into Dan was concluded more than 12 months before charges were laid.
The proceding opened a Pandora's box of evidence supporting the findings of the various reports alleging failure of Command and supervision. The statute of limitations for charges under the AFDA expires next Thursday.
Some might say the timing was perfect... or criminal!
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 25, 2013 13:27:54 GMT 12
Well, here's a surprise......... " Chief of Air Force, Air Vice-Marshal Peter Stockwell said there was "insufficient evidence" for any more people to be charged." I'm sorry, but to me all this does is reinforces the belief amongst some people that some Air Force personnel are covering the butts of their mates higher up the chain of command. www.stuff.co.nz/national/8596444/Case-closed-on-Anzac-Day-helicopter-crash
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Post by mowgli on Apr 25, 2013 15:29:34 GMT 12
The command investigation considered whether CO3 and/or OC485WG had failed to administer the categorisation and currency scheme properly.
So Really just another aleged administrative failure. Still at the working level. Nothing at all to do with failure to take all practical steps to ensure a safe and healthy workplace. Nothing about condoning unsafe practices. Nothing to do with failing to treat risks associated with stripping out the back office to maintain outputs.
Nothing more than smoke and mirrors and further proof that the RNZAF can't be trusted to investigate itself.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Apr 25, 2013 16:35:01 GMT 12
Well, here's a surprise......... " Chief of Air Force, Air Vice-Marshal Peter Stockwell said there was "insufficient evidence" for any more people to be charged." I'm sorry, but to me all this does is reinforces the belief amongst some people that some Air Force personnel are covering the butts of their mates higher up the chain of command. www.stuff.co.nz/national/8596444/Case-closed-on-Anzac-Day-helicopter-crash Those at the top of the RNZAF have waited out the three-year statute of limitations, and as of today, they can no longer be busted for anything connected with that helicopter crash.
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Post by corsair67 on Apr 25, 2013 17:40:42 GMT 12
Those at the top of the RNZAF have waited out the three-year statute of limitations, and as of today, they can no longer be busted for anything connected with that helicopter crash. Obviously that's just a coincidence........
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Post by baronbeeza on Apr 25, 2013 18:46:15 GMT 12
I have been going through some of the replies here and many had me wondering.
I did more than a few years with the RNZAF but I have also worked in aviation in other roles about the show as well.
The mob is typically a young man's job and I would not normally associate it with any depth of experience. I am thinking some of the comments here are probably reflecting that also.
I always thought the safety culture within the mob was over the top and to the point where productivity was probably the worst I have ever encountered in any aviation related company. I know some here have worked in the industry for many years also and against that some may have limited experience. I think about the jobs I have had, and there have been scores of them all over the world. From management in GA, military and airline, and again in various countries. So GA mechanic, LAME and manager in several countries, same with military and airline. From loader driver to pilot, survey crew and general dogsbody.
I can only think of a handful of those companies that even went about business in a manner similar to the RNZAF. Obviously the RAF and RAAF were similar as were a NZ based airline. The rest generally put productivity and reasonable safety in the order of priority, in most the aircraft would have a serviceability rate about twice that of the RNZAF.
The idea of having a fleet of 8 machines with a view to having less than half serviceable would be laughable to many. Even someone like Ansett NZ would have every aircraft rostered for flight every weekday. Maintenance was done at nights and on weekends.
Same with the Coastwatch aircraft in Oz, and many may be surprised to hear that some bases only had a shift of 3 engineering staff doing work during the night. The same guys were also doing the Airlink contract for Qantas.
So of possibly 60 to 80 companies only two or three standout as having an extremely regulated approach with a strong safety culture. The RNZAF, in my experience, is one of those.
I appreciate that the other companies I have been associated with are much smaller..... against that there are many of them and naturally hundreds I have not been involved with.
Surely other readers here must have worked for the likes of Air NZ, Ansett, Air Nelson, any or the 3rd level carriers getting down to GA and the topdressing or venison recovery businesses.
When I try and draw comparisons between the RNZAF and the rest of the industry I have trouble. The RNZAF really is just so different to anything else I have encountered. We have a large pool of young, inexperienced guys completely distracted with supernumerary positions, sports and other service related courses trying to operate a fleet of aircraft. The constant postings and attrition just keeps the experience pool at minimal levels on top of that.
Many of the hangars I have worked in elsewhere have a very stable workforce, one I can think of in England is basically a job for life. Two or three of the guys would have done 40 years apiece and you would be expected to die in the job rather than retire. With a workforce of say six people total that was the experience. The Chief Engineer must have been over 80 when he finally didn't show one day.
The military of all three services require young men to do the job. That is the front line military task of warfare.
We have young men, brainwashed into a disciplined culture and then trained and rotated through various positions and bases to meet just that. These guys are primarily in a military role and not anything that could be compared with other aviation related positions. I think that is why I can't compare the work of within the mob to anything I have encountered elsewhere. I probably had between 10 and 20 job environments before signing up as well.
Ok, now having said that I cannot see how we can compare what the RNZAF do in civilian terms.
Others here will remember the culture and why you came to be expected to go off into harms way. That was what life was all about anyway.
I have lived in Africa and at one point there I thought about the true value of my life. The figure I came up with was 50 cents..... so life can be cheap. I am sure many of those in active warzones must have sat down and had similar thoughts. You need to have had a few bad experiences along the way though of course.
I can't for the life of me seeing a lawyer or judge ever come up with a dollar figure even approaching that. They simply don't understand.
Has anyone either served in Afghanistan or Vietnam, or heard from someone who has, and have thoughts on the military culture thing ?
I have concerns that the modern PC world is going to take over and try and dictate how we should fight wars. The guys will be going into the jungle in fluoro jackets next !!
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Post by nige on Apr 25, 2013 22:03:39 GMT 12
Manawatu Standard 23/04/2013 www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/8585180/Command-role-in-crash-reviewedCommand role in crash reviewed KATHRYN KING Last updated 12:00 23/04/2013 A legal review into the role played by higher command in the Anzac Day 2010 helicopter crash that killed three men is under way. The review is the third phase of the investigation into the crash, which saw one Iroquois helicopter from a formation of three crash while travelling from Ohakea to Wellington to perform a series of Anzac Day fly-pasts. The crash near Pukerua Bay killed Flight Lieutenant Hayden Madsen, 33, Flying Officer Dan Gregory, 28, and Corporal Ben Carson, 25, and seriously injured Sergeant Stevin Creeggan. Last week, Flight Lieutenant Daniel Pezaro, the lead pilot in the formation, was found not guilty of a charge of negligently failing to abort the flight when the weather deteriorated below authorised flying levels. Flight Lieutenant Pezaro's charge was phase two of the investigation. Phase one saw now retired Squadron Leader Robert Stockley charged and convicted in a review of the authorisation of the flight, but the conviction was overturned. A Defence Force spokeswoman said no further charges would be laid in relation to the first two phases of the investigation, but a legal review looking at the role of higher command was under way.
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Post by nige on Apr 25, 2013 22:05:23 GMT 12
Manawatu Standard 25/04/2013 www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/8596174/Case-closed-on-Anzac-Day-copter-crashCase closed on Anzac Day copter crash KATHRYN KING Last updated 12:00 25/04/2013 Three years to the day since a helicopter crash that killed three men, any further charges relating to the air force accident have been ruled out. The results of a legal review into the role played by higher command in the Anzac Day 2010 helicopter crash returned yesterday in favour of no further charges. Chief of Air Force, Air Vice-Marshal Peter Stockwell said there was "insufficient evidence" for any more people to be charged. One Iroquois helicopter from a formation of three crashed near Pukerua Bay on Anzac Day 2010 while travelling from Ohakea to Wellington. The crash killed Flight Lieutenant Hayden Madsen, 33, Flying Officer Dan Gregory, 28, and Corporal Ben Carson, 25, and seriously injured Sergeant Stevin Creeggan. Last week, Flight Lieutenant Daniel Pezaro, the lead pilot in the formation, was found not guilty of negligently failing to abort the flight when the weather deteriorated below authorised flying levels. Flight Lieutenant Pezaro's charge was phase two of the investigation. In phase one, Squadron Leader Robert Stockley, now retired, was charged and convicted in a review of the authorisation of the flight, but the conviction was overturned.
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Post by nige on Apr 25, 2013 22:08:02 GMT 12
Well, here's a surprise......... " Chief of Air Force, Air Vice-Marshal Peter Stockwell said there was "insufficient evidence" for any more people to be charged." I'm sorry, but to me all this does is reinforces the belief amongst some people that some Air Force personnel are covering the butts of their mates higher up the chain of command. www.stuff.co.nz/national/8596444/Case-closed-on-Anzac-Day-helicopter-crashWell, it seems Phase 3 of the investigation was concluded rather quickly (judging by the dates of the two previous articles)!
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junior
Flight Lieutenant
Wibble
Posts: 95
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Post by junior on Jun 21, 2013 15:50:17 GMT 12
Shock at compo offer for dead son[/b][/font]
Last updated 12:49 21/06/2013
The Nelson father of one of the three airmen killed in the Anzac Day 2010 helicopter crash is astounded by the "bizarre" offer of a $70,000 settlement, but says he still wants the matter investigated by an outside party.
Corporal Ben Carson, 25, died alongside Flying Officer Dan Gregory, 28, and Flight Lieutenant Hayden Madsen, 33, when their 3 Squadron Iroquois helicopter crashed in thick cloud at Pukerua Bay, north of Wellington, about 6am on April 25, 2010. Sergeant Stevin Creeggan was seriously injured.
Corporal Carson's father, Andrew Carson, said this morning that he had received a letter from Chief of Defence Lieutenant General Rhys Jones on Monday, offering the sum as full and final compensation for pain and suffering. The offer was not an attempt to put a financial value on Corporal Carson's life.
Mr Carson said he did not understand why such an offer was now being made.
"I don't know if the other two families had asked them for money, we certainly never mentioned money with them whatsoever.
"After the way we have been treated, I found it quite astounding."
The Carsons have complained of ill-treatment by the Defence Force since the crash, after they had been excluded from Defence Force meetings and emails.
Mr Carson said they had been excluded from a briefing for families as recently as last week.
"The other families say they have been treated very well by the air force. The air force are still treating us as badly as they were."
He understood if the settlement was agreed to, no civil suit could be taken against the air force.
He would be seeking legal advice.
The letter also said the settlement would be raised in any criminal prosecution of the Defence Force.
Mr Carson said Mr Creeggan would next week be seeking permission to criminally prosecute the Defence Force.
"To me, I seriously wonder about the motive. You're talking a week before Stevin's case, they obviously want people to sign it and say, ‘right, no matter what happens you can't take them to court over it'.
"For us, we just want it to be investigated."
In April the lead pilot on the day of the crash, Flight Lieutenant Daniel John Pezaro, was acquitted of negligently failing to abort the transit flight when the weather deteriorated and fell below authorised flying levels. Mr Carson then said the process was "laughable and criminal".
A January review by Wellington barrister Matthew McClelland recommended 26 changes to Defence Force protocol in the wake of the tragedy.
They included appointing staff to be dedicated points of contact for family after personnel are killed in action and making sure the wills of all Defence Force staff are up to date.
- © Fairfax NZ News
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 26, 2013 16:20:39 GMT 12
Anzac Day crash: Survivor launches court bidBy Teuila Fuatai 12:07 PM Wednesday Jun 26, 2013 The sole survivor of the Anzac Day 2010 military helicopter crash today launched his court bid to seek criminal prosecutions for his air force superiors. Sergeant Stevin Creeggan had been travelling with three other members of the Defence Force in an Air Force Iroquois when it crashed in bad weather above Pukerua Bay north of Wellington in 2010. Flying Officer Daniel Gregory, Flight Lieutenant Hayden Madsen and Corporal Ben Carson died in the crash. Sergeant Creeggan, who suffered serious injuries, was found 25 metres away from the wreckage. Details of today's proceedings at the Wellington District Court were suppressed due to sensitive medical information. APNZ can report that Sergeant Creeggan has applied for an extension in his prosecution against the Defence Force and Chief of the Defence Force because the relevant legislation restricts prosecutions to six months after the incident. Families of the men involved in the fatal early morning flight, which was found to be caused by major faults in Defence Force systems and an unhealthy risk-taking ethos, are believed to be divided over the Defence Force's response to the crash. Shortly after the incident, then Defence Minister Wayne Mapp was forced to apologise to Sergeant Creeggan's parents Gaile and John after incorrectly telling the media their son had died. It was also reported a year later Mrs and Mr Creeggan were denied access to their son after the crash as they were not listed as next-of-kin, when Air Force papers revealed they had been listed. Last week, the families of the three airmen killed in the crash were offered $70,000 for each death. Andrew and Pauline Carson, whose son Ben was 25-years-old when he died have sought legal advice over the offer. The Gregory and Madsen families are believed to be supportive of the Defence Force. - APNZ By Teuila Fuatai www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10893100
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Eng
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 81
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Post by Eng on Jun 27, 2013 10:41:43 GMT 12
>and an unhealthy risk-taking ethos,< Funny!!! ? I always thought that was part of the excitement of military flying ?? "Health" just didnt seem to come into the equation .
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 18, 2014 17:47:58 GMT 12
Anzac Day chopper crash: NZDF pleads guilty
Updated 21 min ago4:57 PM Friday Jul 18, 2014 The RNZAF Iroquois helicopter crashed into a steep hillside north of Wellington. Photo / Mark Mitchell Air force commanders allowed a dangerous and deadly culture of rule-breaking to exist in an environment which had few warning systems, ultimately resulting in the unnecessary deaths of three young airmen, a court has found. The NZ Defence Force pleaded guilty yesterday to breaching health and safety laws, leading to the fatal crash at Pukerua Bay north of Wellington on Anzac Day 2010. Chief of Air Force Air Vice Marshal Mike Yardley appeared in court, representing the RNZAF as the accused. The Wellington District Court was told today that none of the pilots in the three-helicopter formation were qualified to be airborne that day, flying with night vision from Ohakea in the Manawatu to the Anzac Day service in Wellington. The prosecution was taken by Sergeant Stevin Creeggan, the only person to survive the accident which killed Corporal Ben Carson, Flight lieutenant Hayden Madsen and Flight Lieutenant Dan Gregory. He sought special permission from the court to take the prosecution outside the usual legal time limit after the then-Department of Labour misunderstood it was responsible for investigating the crash and did nothing. It emerged Flight Lieutenant Madsen had only a half-a-second warning of danger that he was 50 feet from the ground but would have had 19 seconds to react if he had followed Defence Force Orders and set the alarm at 200 feet. Prosecutor Tim Mackenzie told the court the air force's failure to eliminate the "can do" culture at 3 Squadron "which may have led to personnel believing it was appropriate to breach orders and flight plans to complete tasks". The court was told the air force had no system which would allow those in charge of authorising flights to judge whether or not personnel were qualified for the duties they were being asked to perform. It was also alleged the air force had failed to follow its own processes which would have seen the flight path checked the day before to familiarise crews with the path they would travel. Mr Mackenzie also said there was no appropriate risk management system for indentifying risks when flying with night vision gear. In the wake of the verdict, the parents of Ben Carson, Andrew and Pauline, praised Mr Creeggan for taking the case. "Without Stevin, it would have been swept under the carpet." Mr Carson said the four men on the flight deserved "respect" from their employer - the air force - and called for an overhaul of the military justice system, which has seen no one convicted for the failures which led to the deaths. NZDF accepts responsibility The Defence Force said in a statement this afternoon that it accepted responsibility and unreservedly apologies for failing to prevent the crash. "As an organisation we did not do all that we could to ensure a safe working environment for our people," said Chief of Air Force Air Vice-Marshal Mike Yardley. "We have pleaded guilty to failing to prevent this accident and we have unreservedly apologised for our shortcomings. I reiterate that apology to all of the next of kin and to Sergeant Creeggan," he said. "The effect of this tragedy on the families of those lost, and on Sergeant Creeggan, will never go away. The only amends Defence can make is to ensure that the lessons of this tragedy also never go away. We have committed wholeheartedly to do that: part of the legacy of this accident has been a complete overhaul of the Defence Force's approach to safety. "We owe that to the crew of Iroquois Black 2, we owe it to the families, and we owe it to our Defence Force," he said. He said the failure could not be laid at the door of any one person or small group, but was organisational. "A variety of related flaws in our systems failed to prevent a fatal event." Air Vice Marshall Yardley said the Chief of Defence Force had established a Defence-wide Directorate of Health and Safety. "In the Air Force, our Flying Orders have been completely re-written. Improved risk-management assessments for all flights have been introduced, and a new operating airworthiness unit has been put in place to supervise the management and safety of all air operations at Ohakea, in line with similar units at our other bases. "We have to be an organisation that is looking far ahead for risks to our people, long before they become an accident. We owe it to the crew of Iroquois Black 2, we owe it to the families, and we owe it to our Defence Force and the New Zealand people." - APNZ
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