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Post by chrisnpl on Dec 2, 2006 23:58:40 GMT 12
I am just wondering which squadrons carried out the transport of people post war - as in airline style, with seats, rather than sitting on sacks and freight and other things; and in particular the VIP aircraft.
40 Squadron had a VIP DC-6 for a short time (1961-64), and from 1961-68 the Squadron operated an airliner style transport with them, as they were ex-TEAL and fairly comfortable, with 56 seats.
It sounds like the Hastings could be fitted with seats too - up to thirty - and operated 1952-66.
But I am not sure if the Hercules were; and they've been going since 1965.
Who fulfilled this role until the Andovers became available in the 1970s with 1 Squadron? 41 or 42 Squadron, perhaps? (But I thought they only had Devons and Bristol Freighters.)
It looks like true long range transport operations did not happen again until the Boeing 727s were purchased in 1981; but I may be wrong here.
Any information welcome around this! Thank you.
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Post by phil82 on Dec 3, 2006 6:59:28 GMT 12
I'm fairly certain the three DC6s were 'as fitted' when they arrived from TEAL. I spent three weeks in one and they were very comfortable! I don't recall any additional VIP fit other than the usual seats.
The Hastings was designed as a pax/freight role, and could indeed carry both. By no stretch of the imagination could a Hastings be described as a VIP transport, believ me!
The Hercules, as the only long range aircraft we had, had a special pallet which had more comfortable seats and a toilet, and could be rolled into the aircraft as required. If it was just carrying peasants, such as we airmen, then you sat inthe 'webs' at the side, facing whatever freight was on board.The average Herc flight to the UK was five days including a crew rest day! The Herc was never intended for long range transport of people. It's essentially an airborne truck, hence the requirement for the B727. Oddly enough, when the Govt approved the purchase of an aircraft, singular, to do the job ultimately filled by the 727s, the RNZAF went to Boeing who told them "hey, have we got a deal for you!", and offered three ex-United Airlines 727s for the same money.Those three aircraft were "well-used" by the way, and had a fairly high cycle of landings and take-offs behind them. One of them flew to Woodbourne and became a 'Christmas tree', i.e. reduced to spares for the other two, which gave a pretty good service until they too had to go for a variety of reasons.
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Post by phil82 on Dec 3, 2006 7:24:18 GMT 12
Just as an aside, I did a Herc trip to the UK through Hawaii and the US to RAF Lyneham [and I got a ride back in an RAF VC10, but that's another story!], and my regular seat was down the back near the ramp. The ramp was used for baggage so that when you landed it was immediately accessible and you could more or less grab it as you walked off.
Well, we had a Navy guy on the flight, and in the manner of every matelot I've ever met, could sleep on the edge of a razor blade if needs be. This one had taken to sleeping on the ramp in among the baggage.
We had just taken off from Hickham Air Base in Hawaii, climbing out through about five thousand feet ot so when we hit some turbulance which cause the aircraft to shake a bit, and there was a very loud 'BANG' from the area of the ramp. I suspected it was one of the ramp locks which hadn't engaged properly, but no one else looked up except the matelot lying on the ramp, who leapt to his feet and 'hit the deck a-running' as they say, and headed off up front. The air force guys sitting in the webs just looked at him in bemusement, until he sheepishly woke up to the fact he wasn't on a frigate and there was nowhere to go.
Anyway, I wanded up front and shoved my head up onto the flight-deck and caught the Loady's eye, told him of the noise, and he told the Captain. The solution was quite simple apparently, they simply stopped the climb, levelled out, opened the ramp a few inches , then closed it again, just like slammiing a car door shut!. The Captain later came down to where I was sitting for a bit of a chat, which I thought was very nice of him, but when I told him about the Matelot we both set off laughing again, it was that funny.I always meant to ask him[the sailor] just where he thought he was going?
The Herc is not too bad for long flights really, if you're prepared to accept that it's getting you where you want to go. It's not VIP for sure, and the days can be long if, for example , you're flying Auckland to the UK. I think we went Whenuapai, Fiji, Hawaii, San Francisco, Lyenham, each leg being effectively a days flying. Some legs are 4-5 hours, others, 10-12. Personally, I was always pleased to get where we were going, and I did a lot of trips in the back of a Herc!
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Post by caromeg on Dec 3, 2006 9:23:03 GMT 12
Best long distance flights I have ever had were off to timor a couple of times in a C-130. always managed to swing a resupply flight which meant only a small number of odds and bods which means more good food and a hammock to sleep in. After a direct flight from Darwin to NZWH would wake up fresh and ready to go - no jet lag. I went up once via 727 and found this to be OK but not as relaxing as the herc flights. I have however had the unfortunate experience of cattle class Herc full and not much room. Still agree, it does get you there in the end. (Max performance take offs out of Suai were always entertaining as were the approaches).
40 Sqn did very well.
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Post by beagle on Dec 3, 2006 9:33:01 GMT 12
Just as an aside, I did a Herc trip to the UK through Hawaii and The Herc is not too bad for long flights really, if you're prepared to accept that it's getting you where you want to go. It's not VIP for sure, and the days can be long if, for example , you're flying Auckland to the UK. I think we went Whenuapai, Fiji, Hawaii, San Francisco, Lyenham, each leg being effectively a days flying. Some legs are 4-5 hours, others, 10-12. Personally, I was always pleased to get where we were going, and I did a lot of trips in the back of a Herc! I love them, flying in them was brilliant, from low level to long range. Twice i did long range trips, the first for Fincastle in 89, saging through the states both ways, and the second time for BullsEye in 94. The second trip had us go west first. 7 days, some people would say 7 days in the back of a herk. It was cool fun. We had lots of room plus they had fitted the pallets with the old VIP 2 abreast seating on pallets. Big an comfy plus we had heaps of leg room. Ok, so we had some long days 9, 10 hour sectors but how many people have landed on a small island which only houses the airfield then go on a small tuk tuk boat to an another island that is only for 1 resort and sit back in the tropical heat watching the boys play touch rugby in a coral filled lagoon. Shopping the markets in downtown Bahrain, reminising in the old ruins of Crete, pigging out on 50 satays and eating durian in the old food stalls in Canberra Road Singapore. There was only one thing better about the deal, we were getting paid for it and alo extra allowances. How many 9-5 jobs would ya be doing that. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 3, 2006 10:36:02 GMT 12
Chris, don't forget that from 1945 both No.s 40 and 41 Squadrons flew their Dakotas in the passenger role, dual for military service and repatriation, etc., plus as civil transports (eventually becoming NAC).
Then there is 42 Squadron which has also carried a lot of passengers.
I would think however that No. 40 Sqn will have carried the most, as it has constantly been a transport squadron since formation and has had the largest capacity aircraft. As well as trips abroad for military and dignataries, and usage as NAC aircraft, they also were and are the backbone of the SATS flights, the military airline between bases. In my day they operated a Sats (Strategic Air Transport Service from memory) flight every Monday, Weds and Friday from Whenuapai to Ohakea, to Rongotai to Harewood and back. Some of the services (Herc and Andover) also stopped at Woodbourne).
The Andovers could be fitted with airline seats and interestingly they were fitted facing backwards, which is an interesting experience on takeoff, etc. They're fitted that way as studies show they're many more times safer in the event of an emergency. Sadly airlines don't follow that safety code. The Hercs had the webbing seats that could be fitted down the centre as well as the walls by the way. They were comfortable but the Herc is deafening to fly in. Earplugs needed for sure.
The Boeing 727 had a VIP kit that could be fitted, when several front rows of seats were removed. i helped fit it one day. It has a beautiful mahogany dining table that had just been restored for $10,000. There was a bar, plush couches and beds, pristine carpet, paintings on the walls, the lot all in this removable kit. We were fitting it quicksmart because PM Geoff Palmer decided he wanted to go somewhere in a hurry. It would have been sheer luxury to fly overseas in. I guess a similar deal is done for the 757's?
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Post by beagle on Dec 3, 2006 11:32:29 GMT 12
Nor sure what is being done with B757 vip fit out, but with the 757 and 727 being the same fuselage size it probably fits in, then again depending on other things etc for dividing panels, electrical power etc etc.
The couch that you would have fitted folds down into a bed.
I have thoughts of randy aircrew bring ladies back to show them the plane at night while overseas on a vip flight, but it is probably a fact that it has happened.
From Reading in the RNZAF News magazine a few months back regards all the upgrades etc, pretty sure it said there after the 757 gets the new roller floor the seats will be all placed on pallets and the internal fit out will be able to be reconfigured in hours, rather than days.
Wha they need at Ohakea when 40 sqn goes there is a 2 storey building where the aircraft can nose in just past the new cargo door and this will be at the right lever where the roll on roll off pallets will be stored etc for ease of loading, will also help with Ohakeas wetaher problems when trying to load stuff through the new big door.
Actually while on the subject of the 757 upgrade I see they are putting in a new crew access ladder behind the nose landing gear.
Ihave not seen any detailed information but i take it this is going to be a proper acess hatch and fold down metal ladder where crew can get inside from under the a/c and through a hole in the cockpit floor.
Anybody got any more detailed info on that one.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 3, 2006 11:49:03 GMT 12
That idea for the two storeyed building is not a bad one at all. You'd have to have the aircraft lined up precisely so as not toscrape the sides, but I guess a case of some mechanical contraption that the nosewheel is taxied onto that actually pulls the plane forward straight could be worked out. Otherwise you might get a Flying High situation of plane through the building!
That crew hatch is an interesting idea. It'll make it feel more military for the crew too, like a bomber! :-)
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Post by beagle on Dec 3, 2006 12:10:40 GMT 12
That idea for the two storeyed building is not a bad one at all. You'd have to have the aircraft lined up precisely so as not toscrape the sides, but I guess a case of some mechanical contraption that the nosewheel is taxied onto that actually pulls the plane forward straight could be worked out. Otherwise you might get a Flying High situation of plane through the building! That crew hatch is an interesting idea. It'll make it feel more military for the crew too, like a bomber! :-) Well if they want or need to be 100% exact for pushing the pallets through the door, then if they had a system where 1 pallet at a time is moved onto an areas next to the door and this small areas has hydraulics to move it up/down, left/right, back and forward, this might be only inches but would take the "accidental" scraping of the airframe. Don't want another incident like it's delivery flight. as for the suggestion of a " mechanical contraption" to pull it in, then you could take the same steps that they do in airports overseas where they slot into block and it is either a,hydraulically pulled along, or b, they grab heaps of baggies to push,or c, grab a second hand catapault launch rail, but cut the steam down. pretty sure there is enough syeam that gets blown around on base anyway. As for the crew hatch "bomber style" something like the B1 Lancer you might be referring to. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 3, 2006 12:37:53 GMT 12
"As for the crew hatch "bomber style" something like the B1 Lancer you might be referring to."
Or a B17 Flying Fortress....
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Post by steve on Dec 3, 2006 13:27:06 GMT 12
Colin ...great reading thanks for the memories...were you ever stationed at Shelly Bay?
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Post by steve on Dec 3, 2006 13:39:15 GMT 12
My grandmother used to tell me about her trip to fiji in 1961...she said it was an airforce DC6..and not teal...could that have been possible ..ie RNZAF being contracted on occasions?
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Post by phil82 on Dec 3, 2006 14:06:57 GMT 12
Colin ...great reading thanks for the memories...were you ever stationed at Shelly Bay? Yes Steve, I went from LAC to Pilot Officer in 1968, and was posted to Air Staff in Wellington, but lived in at Shelly Bay until 1970 when I got married! |
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Post by phil82 on Dec 3, 2006 14:18:47 GMT 12
There were some ironies attached to being delivered to Singapore via Perth during Confrontation,; a 12 hour flight from Perth because we had to fly all the way around Indonesia! When we flew back in 1966, the 'war' being officially over, we flew direct to Darwin, a mere four hours away! On that Herc trip to the UK, I was the only non-NCO passenger, but it was in the days when the RNZAF still issued good conduct stripes , so when we booked into the SNCOs accommodation at Hickham Air Base, the Loady told the USAF guy in charge, who had stripes all the way up his sleeve, that "we were all SNCOs". I had a fantastic night in the Sgts Mess! |
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Post by turboNZ on Dec 12, 2006 7:55:31 GMT 12
I had two trips in a Herc going to & back from Waiouru. Sat on the sides on the webbing facing forward towards the cargo,..and yes I remember it being very noisy !!
Great experience for sure especially trying to stop yourself going leftways forward (I was sitting on the left) on landing when they really pulled it up on brakes and reverse thrust !!
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Post by beagle on Dec 12, 2006 18:52:55 GMT 12
yes the "hercules lean" for take offs and landings.
Used to be quite funny watching the faces of wives and children on herk sats flights.
As I work just around the corner from the apron I do see the boeing there quite a bit on a Monday and Friday but it has been a long time since I have seen a Herk, for sats i mean.
Are they that busy with overseas work, plus maintenance.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 12, 2006 19:14:12 GMT 12
There are a lot less people to transport these days - I guess the Boeing is big enough to cope with traffic.
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Post by beagle on Dec 12, 2006 19:24:27 GMT 12
it was usually more full with wives and kids.
Are you saying military folk are staying single or too busy to have kids.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Dec 12, 2006 19:29:22 GMT 12
Just less military people to have wives and kids
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