|
|
Post by gunny on Jul 20, 2012 23:30:26 GMT 12
Collings Foundation's A-36 restoration complete. World debut at Oshkosh After more than ten years of restoration, the Collings Foundation’s A-36A Apache (also known as the Invader) s/n 42-83738, N.A.A. s/n 15956 is complete. This is one of three in existence and one of two currently flying in the world. The quality in craftsmanship and attention to detail is, bar-none, some of the finest in the history of warbird restoration. We want to acknowledge the entire staff at American Aero Services in New Smyrna Beach, Florida. Their great dedication and commitment to perfection is clearly evident in completing the restoration of this legendary aircraft. The A-36 Apache was the ground-attack/dive bomber version of the P-51 Mustang. The Apache is very similar to the P-51A Mustang with the exception of the large slatted dive brakes above and below the wings. Manufactured by North American Aviation and designed by Edgar Schmued, the A-36 was introduced in 1942 and retired from service in 1945. 500 were built and served in the Mediterranean, North Africa, Italy and China-India-Burma theaters. Between the war-bird enthusiast and historians, there is some confusion and misinformation about the correct name for the A-36. According to the research and findings of some like Joe Baugher, “names such as Invader and Apache have also been associated with the A-36, but the correct name is and always has been Mustang. There was a brief effort to change the name of the A-36 to Invader following the invasion of Sicily in order to distinguish it from the fighter versions in press coverage. The Army turned down the request, since they didn't want to reveal to the enemy that they were facing a dive-bomber version of the fighter. In addition, the name Invader had already been assigned to the Douglas A-26. There is a persistent myth that the A-36 was initially called Apache, which was the name that the Army had initially assigned to the very early P-51. However, this story has no basis in fact, and was in fact a myth that originated in the 1980s.” More here collingsfoundation.org/enews/enewsletter_July.12.htm |
|
|
|
Post by gunny on Jul 20, 2012 23:42:12 GMT 12
I must say i have never seen a P-51B with through prop noseguns so i guess this was for the A-36 only?  Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by gunny on Jul 20, 2012 23:42:59 GMT 12
 Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by gunny on Jul 20, 2012 23:44:22 GMT 12
 Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by ngatimozart on Jul 21, 2012 17:21:22 GMT 12
This site talks about it and gives some details but the claim that it save the Mustang, well that's crap. What saved the Mustang was the RR Merlin. The original Alison engine was to underpowered and once a bright pommy spark had the idea of rengining with a Merlin, well the rest as they say, is history. www.aviation-history.com/north-american/a36.html |
|
|
|
Post by baz62 on Jul 21, 2012 18:40:41 GMT 12
I must say i have never seen a P-51B with through prop noseguns so i guess this was for the A-36 only? The original weapons fit for the P51A was 6 guns, two in each wing and two under the nose. ( i think the nose guns might have been .30cals?) Looks like the A36 had the nose guns as well Then they installed the Merlin in the P51B/C models and deleted the nose guns but still only had 4 wing guns. It wasn't til the P51D that the six wing guns appeared. Actually I thought the wing guns on the A36 were cannons as they had long barrels in some photos I've seen. EDIT: Hmmmm some sites seem to say the A36 had the nose guns but the A model didn't. Research time me thinks! |
|
|
|
Post by gunny on Jul 21, 2012 20:02:23 GMT 12
This site talks about it and gives some details but the claim that it save the Mustang, well that's crap. What saved the Mustang was the RR Merlin. The original Alison engine was to underpowered and once a bright pommy spark had the idea of rengining with a Merlin, well the rest as they say, is history. www.aviation-history.com/north-american/a36.htmlFrom what i remember, the yank R,R's did not have the output of the brit ones? But yeah the allisons were bad |
|
|
|
Post by gunny on Jul 21, 2012 20:05:25 GMT 12
I must say i have never seen a P-51B with through prop noseguns so i guess this was for the A-36 only? The original weapons fit for the P51A was 6 guns, two in each wing and two under the nose. ( i think the nose guns might have been .30cals?) Looks like the A36 had the nose guns as well Then they installed the Merlin in the P51B/C models and deleted the nose guns but still only had 4 wing guns. It wasn't til the P51D that the six wing guns appeared. Actually I thought the wing guns on the A36 were cannons as they had long barrels in some photos I've seen. EDIT: Hmmmm some sites seem to say the A36 had the nose guns but the A model didn't. Research time me thinks! Thanks Baz so you had heard of an A-36 then |
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Jul 21, 2012 22:33:12 GMT 12
From the Planes of Fame: planesoffame.org/index.php?mact=staircraft,cntnt01,default,0&cntnt01what=stplanes&cntnt01alias=P-51A&cntnt01returnid=128 The Royal Air Force approached North American Aviation to build P-40 Warhawks under license from Curtiss. North American believed they could build a better fighter for the British, and the first NA-73X prototype was flown on 26 October 1940, from Mines Field (now Los Angeles International Airport); the airframe had been completed in a remarkable 102 days! The early machines were afflicted with aerodynamic problems that increased drag and led to fuel starvation. Later redesigns of the radiator and carburetor ram air scoops solved those problems, and the first production model was delivered to the RAF in October 1942. Meanwhile, the Army Air Corps received its first XP-51 on 24 August 1941. However, the Army Air Forces' (AAF) fighter budget outlook was grim, and it looked like the type would be stillborn, so NAA executives and their AAF counterparts conspired to fund the aircraft under the attack budget. Accordingly, bomb racks and dive brakes were added, and the Mustang became the A-36, thus keeping the production line open. |
|
|
|
Post by paddy on Jul 22, 2012 11:21:22 GMT 12
Collings Foundation's A-36 restoration complete. World debut at Oshkosh After more than ten years of restoration, the Collings Foundation’s A-36A Apache (also known as the Invader) s/n 42-83738, N.A.A. s/n 15956 is complete. This is one of three in existence and one of two currently flying in the world. The quality in craftsmanship and attention to detail is, bar-none, some of the finest in the history of warbird restoration. We want to acknowledge the entire staff at American Aero Services in New Smyrna Beach, Florida. Their great dedication and commitment to perfection is clearly evident in completing the restoration of this legendary aircraft. The A-36 Apache was the ground-attack/dive bomber version of the P-51 Mustang. The Apache is very similar to the P-51A Mustang with the exception of the large slatted dive brakes above and below the wings. Manufactured by North American Aviation and designed by Edgar Schmued, the A-36 was introduced in 1942 and retired from service in 1945. 500 were built and served in the Mediterranean, North Africa, Italy and China-India-Burma theaters. Between the war-bird enthusiast and historians, there is some confusion and misinformation about the correct name for the A-36. According to the research and findings of some like Joe Baugher, “names such as Invader and Apache have also been associated with the A-36, but the correct name is and always has been Mustang. There was a brief effort to change the name of the A-36 to Invader following the invasion of Sicily in order to distinguish it from the fighter versions in press coverage. The Army turned down the request, since they didn't want to reveal to the enemy that they were facing a dive-bomber version of the fighter. In addition, the name Invader had already been assigned to the Douglas A-26. There is a persistent myth that the A-36 was initially called Apache, which was the name that the Army had initially assigned to the very early P-51. However, this story has no basis in fact, and was in fact a myth that originated in the 1980s.” More here collingsfoundation.org/enews/enewsletter_July.12.htmThere's 2 piccies in this thread showing the guns. rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=photography&thread=11506&page=1#99526 |
|
|
|
Post by Brett on Jul 22, 2012 14:22:00 GMT 12
XP-51  |
|
|
|
Post by spiteful21k on Sept 24, 2012 15:06:01 GMT 12
|
|
|
|
Post by colford on Oct 23, 2012 20:03:20 GMT 12
There is unfortunately a lot of bad information around regarding the early variants of the North American Mustang with the Allison V-12 engine. The definitive published work about the early Mustangs to set the record straight has yet to be published, but unfortunately if you depend in Wiki and other sources, all you will get is incorrect information, myths and half truths repeated.
The earliest variant of the Mustang to enter RAF service was the Mk.I in January 1942 with No.26 Sqdn. This was armed with 2 x 0.50 HMGs in the nose synchronised to fire through the propeller arc, and 2 x 0.30 MGs and 1 x 0.50 HMG in each wing. At the time of introduction into RAF service it was already recognised that the single stage supercharger in the Allison would limit the types performance above 15,000 ft and thus it was 'relegated' to Army Co-operation Command. However, below 10,000 ft the RAF identified that it outperformed in straight line speed other available RAF and Luftwaffe types in service at the time. This type did not have a direct equivalent in USAAF nomenclature - it precedes the P-51 designation. If you consider the last of the Mustang Mk.Is were still in operational service on VE Day, same basic model and engine from late 1941 still operational in May 1945, not a bad record.
The second variant to enter RAF service in June 1943 was the Mk.IA, which had the revised armament of 2 x 20mm Hispano Mk.II* cannon in each wing. 150 built, about 90 to the RAF, rest to the USAAF. This was the equivalent to the 'straight ' P-51 in USAAF service. The last of these were begrudgingly retired from front line service in August 1945.
The third variant to enter RAF service was the Mk.II, which was the P-51A in USAAF service. 50 of these to the RAF to replace the Mk.IAs held back by the USAAF. This was armed with 4 x 0.50 HMGs, two in each wing. These entered RAF service in May 1944. Again last of these were begrudgingly retired from operational service in August 1945.
The Apache name was never officially given to the A-36. The Apache name was the name originally proposed by the NAA Marketing Department before the RAF settled on Mustang. The connection of the Apache to the A-36 was an invention of an author in the 1980s. The name Invader has a greater connection and even appeared in US War Office Aircraft Recognition Manuals briefly in 1944 against the A-36.
The Allison got a lot of bad press, but down low it excelled. I have been fortunate enough to have spoken, corresponded and generally chatted with a number of pilot's who flew Allison engined Mustangs in the low level tactical reconnaissance role in WW2 and they were more than happy with the performance and reliability of the Allison engines in their Mustangs. They ran smoother and with less vibration at lower revs then the Merlin, had a longer time between required servicing compared to the Merlin, and in the 'derated' form used by the Tac/R squadron, could still hold its own at low altitude up to the end of the War against many later types. They could set their revs and boost and the engine would perform to those settings until changed by the pilot - they didn't have to keep 'tweaking' the engine controls to keep revs and boost where they had set them. They could set them up for a fast economical cruise that burnt a lot less fuel than a Merlin for the equivalent airspeed below 15,000 ft.
A number of the pilots I dealt with had also flown the Merlin variants and their opinion was certainly at higher altitude they were better performers, but the later models of the Mustang were also heavier and did not perform as well at lower altitudes. In their view the Merlin did not run as smoothly at lower revs, required more input by the pilot to keep consistent revs and did not accelerate as quickly as the Allison version.
The Merlin Mustangs never featured nose guns, the air intakes and other associated plumbing of the Merlin left no room for such things.
Regards.
|
|
|
|
Post by steveh on Oct 23, 2012 22:33:49 GMT 12
Great information there Col, thanks. I've seen your posts on other sites & credit them with increasing my early Mustang knowledge by at least 50 times, not that 50x sod all is a lot anyway but I'll put that down to my retention rather than your information.  A quick question re the Mustang Ia with the 20mm cannon, were these British Hispanos or the less reliable (Colt?) licence built versions? Thanks again, Steve. |
|
|
|
Post by colford on Oct 23, 2012 23:55:08 GMT 12
Steve,
As originally supplied from the USA, they came with the US manufactured 20mm Hispano. But they had a litany of stoppages, jams, malfunctions and general manufacturing tolerance woes. Ditto the US manufactured ammunition. That combined with some under spec'cing of the mounts, led to some serious work by the RAF to fix the problems. New, redesigned and strengthened mounts, and pulling the US manufactured Hispano and replacing them with UK manufactured examples, worked to solve the great majority of the problems and led to much higher reliability. That is why you can tell from the very early photos of Mustang Mk.IAs under trial in the UK, those with the early US manufactured Hispanos and mounts, because they are the ones with the external recoil spring evident ahead of the wing leading edge fairing. The modified mounts and British Hispano, the recoil springs were wholly within the wing leading edge fairing.
Regards.
|
|
|
|
Post by Andy Wright on Oct 24, 2012 8:33:47 GMT 12
Thanks, Col, that's probably the best outline of the early RAF Mustangs I have read. Makes sense considering your work.
|
|
|
|
Post by steveh on Oct 24, 2012 10:06:38 GMT 12
Thanks for that Col, another wee bit of the continually expanding jigsaw inplace. Steve. |
|
|
|
Post by baz62 on Oct 24, 2012 11:43:06 GMT 12
thanks very much, a most interesting read.
|
|
|
|
Post by colford on Oct 24, 2012 18:46:29 GMT 12
Getting back to the original post on the Collings Foundation A-36, this has been a truly top class restoration. The research they put into getting the camouflage and markings right for the subject aircraft, getting all the cockpit equipment correct and finding ways to hide the modern avionics behind original panels and instruments has been quite impressive. Since it has been flying, they have not bothered much to clean down exhaust staining and other 'wear and tear' so it is taking on more and more the look of the 'warbird' it is supposed to be.
And is there an 'Down Under' connection to the A-36?? Yes there certainly is. No.3(RAAF) Sqdn made use of one of the rather well used A-36s that had previously been used by No.1436 Flt in the MTO as a conversion trainer aircraft during their transition from the P-40 to the P-51.
Regards,
|
|
