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Post by meo4 on Sept 24, 2012 17:51:28 GMT 12
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Post by ams888 on Sept 24, 2012 18:30:03 GMT 12
When I saw this on TV I was quite impressed and really enjoyed hearing from a war veteran. For a recruitment ad, it was really well done.
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Post by ngatimozart on Sept 24, 2012 20:44:48 GMT 12
Just had a look. Yep very good ad.
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Post by hawkeye on Dec 16, 2012 9:23:45 GMT 12
They need good propagandea, most of the Navy has gone. I doubt they could put to sea half their fleet if pressed.
Fundamental to it all is piss poor leadership at NZDF with regards to personel. The Navy housing has been absolute travesty for decades. New conditions of service make it untenable.
2 IPVs are tied up. Only one manning for one T Boat. Shortage of engineers. Hate to be in Jack Steers shoes yet he made his bed good to see him lie in it.
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Post by phil82 on Dec 16, 2012 15:26:32 GMT 12
Following Helen's axing of the A4s, a number of very senior officers all of whom had been chiefs or senior officers of their respective services, wrote to Helen. They were, Richard Bolt, Robin Klitscher,Gerald Hensley, Denis Mclean [both former Sec Defs] Ewen Jamieson, and Somerford Teagle. Far from being "piss poor' leaders as you but it, they were highly experienced and principled men. All of them.
In a paper to Helen, they raised a number of topics, On whether we in NZ needed a Defence force at all, then set out to show why we did. We couldn't be neutral, nor could we leave Defence to our friends, namely AUSTRALIA, at the cost of losing our self respect There is no pride in leaving it all to others.
Helen dismissed all of their collective wisdom in describing them as "geriatrics".
So it's not a matter of piss poor leadership as you put it, because Defence is a tool of government and does entirely as the government chooses. If that mean being starved of funding the that's the way it is, and has nothing whatsoever to do with leadership in Defence. Resigning because you don't like a decision isn't really an option, because all they do is take the next guy in line, and the next and the next, each of lesser experience. Resigning is a very expensive option, and in my humble opinion one which achieves SFA.
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 16, 2012 16:02:34 GMT 12
It is an interesting concept isn't it. Defence comes up with the new ideas to attract suitable recruitment numbers and at the same time the Govt of the day looks after the other end.
If you ever did leaving interviews and looked at the reasons given for resignation then I am sure few here would be surprised.
Helen did it for many and David had a very good go also back in the mid '80's.
The forces are basically a training school though and I guess having younger, inexperienced staff means you can have the numbers in the books but have a more manageable salary bill.
The wise old fogies on this forum would be no good in the modern military, - we would be expecting too much pay and are not so stupid that we would be interested in laying down our lives for any politician.
Best left to the impressionable youth....
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Post by phil82 on Dec 16, 2012 18:23:43 GMT 12
The wise old fogies on this forum would be no good in the modern military, - we would be expecting too much pay and are not so stupid that we would be interested in laying down our lives for any politician. quote] Never in my 25 years did I ever consider what politicians thought;not ever. What drove me was not letting my mates down and thus being the very best I could be! |
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Post by baronbeeza on Dec 16, 2012 19:01:10 GMT 12
I didn't get it out quite right. My mind was one step ahead of the fingers.
I was thinking in the context of after you got out. The 'what if I was back in now' brigade.
The 'ex' men that seem to frequent the forum here. Hence my reference to the wise old fogies.
I have been in and around any number of war zones since my military days but at least it was on my terms, and with my local knowledge.
The younger guys are in the mob, and in those places, for other reasons. As you say it is more about mateship etc and that is part of what all the brainwashing was about in those early training courses we all did.
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Post by phil82 on Dec 16, 2012 19:56:26 GMT 12
I don't believe in looking back. My time was my time and now someone else carries the banner. The Services are people processors, always have been, and each generation knows that. When I left, that was it! I got rid of my uniforms, sold my Mess Kit to an RAF guy, and looked forward. Still do!
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Post by ngatimozart on Dec 16, 2012 19:58:33 GMT 12
The latest navy radio advert has some of the old salts saying they'll only rejoin if the rum issue is reinstated and swearing at trainees is allowed. Also they had to be allowed naps during the afternoon watch and that they didn't have to stand middle watches ;D ;D
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Post by phil82 on Dec 17, 2012 12:28:45 GMT 12
I didn't get it out quite right. My mind was one step ahead of the fingers. I was thinking in the context of after you got out. The 'what if I was back in now' brigade. The 'ex' men that seem to frequent the forum here. Hence my reference to the wise old fogies. I have been in and around any number of war zones since my military days but at least it was on my terms, and with my local knowledge. The younger guys are in the mob, and in those places, for other reasons. As you say it is more about mateship etc and that is part of what all the brainwashing was about in those early training courses we all did. There are a few "ex-men" around here, and they're as much entitled to have an opinion as anyone, but I can't help but note that some of those views, or opinions, are suggestive of fact when they're actually very much wide of the mark. I support their right to speak out, but don't always agree when I know what has been said is very much "off the wall"! That doesn't mean I'm always right, far from it, just that I had more relevant experience! Ad Agencies don't always get it right either, because they're dealing with an abstract they don't really understand! |
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Post by phil82 on Dec 17, 2012 12:38:32 GMT 12
If you ever did leaving interviews and looked at the reasons given for resignation then I am sure few here would be surprised. Helen did it for many and David had a very good go also back in the mid '80's. . Helen did it for me, I didn't want to serve under the direction of an entirely vapid, self centred woman with a personal agenda. So I wrote out a 717 and sat back to wait. It didn't take long! I got a call from the Director of Officers Postings and Appointments, one John Hamilton, later CAS and now Civil Defence head . "Alright" he said."What's the story and what do I have to do to change your mind?" No chance! Next was a call from my boss, then Air Commodore Stu McIntyre, a lovely guy, later Director of Civil Aviation. A very amicablee discussion, but my mind was made up...He came to my farewell lunch though! |
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Post by hawkeye on Dec 19, 2012 23:38:19 GMT 12
Maybe I should elaborate further. Regardless of how we dress things up, as plato said, only the dead have seen the end of war. Senior officers have allowed the NZDF to be corpratised, is this really a good thing?. This is the profession at arms. Its all very nice to talk about "the system" and moving forward but its not going to deal with the facts that strategically NZDF is bankrupt - AND YOU CANT JUST BLAME THE POLITICIANS. Everyone in government knows when it comes to budgets defence is the lame dog. Can you imagine police having a 400 mill operational cut and they dont hold their hand up and say ouch - which station you want to close down? Or now that a Telecom cheif exec has done a corporate assessment of our business that means we can now do the same to big business?. If you are going to corporatise defence then the elephant in the room no one wants to address is that the CORE BUSINESS of Armed forces is to kill and be killed. Everything else is optional or a shade of grey. Our Country, Society and grand children deserve better. All I see now days is people aiming for a C pass and geeting an E.
Its not just about money either.
There is no real hard vinegar, ballsy leadership. Everyone is all about perserving their super, worrying about their next posting or keeping their job. When was the last time you saw a senior officer resign in protest?
Why do senior officers not deal with the root cause of the problems. When I was posted to devonport as a Non Navy Service memeber into service housing I was shocked at the complete shambles it was and how it was the number one gripe that was screwing the staff retention and moral. Everyone knows naval housing is a big joke, but anything done about it? Nope, because we look at our staff through corporate eyes not as warfighting leaders. Its all too hard, someone else will do it one day, cant make a decision.
There are still good officer in the services, that I have no doubt, but I have seen too many slip through who just should not have got through to that level of incompetance.
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Post by hawkeye on Dec 20, 2012 0:34:32 GMT 12
((Following Helen's axing of the A4s, a number of very senior officers all of whom had been chiefs or senior officers of their respective services, wrote to Helen. They were, Richard Bolt, Robin Klitscher,Gerald Hensley, Denis Mclean [both former Sec Defs] Ewen Jamieson, and Somerford Teagle. Far from being "piss poor' leaders as you but it, they were highly experienced and principled men. All of them.))
These guys are the good quality people who did the right thing with this action but most were not in Uniform? they did the right thing. BUT, there were in that scenario a large number of officer complicant in the negligance that allowed that capability to demise!
For years senior air force officers never educated the public and governemnt about strike capability and the party line was all about P-3 search and rescue hearts and minds, Hueys dropping hay to sheep, not we do strike capability for regional engagement etc. The A-4 replacement was all about replacing a jet aeroplane - just because.... its old. Not warfighting engagement in the profession at arms as to what is required. The RAAF and RAF gave options to the RNZAF and these were dropped out of spite. - Seniour and middle management small mindeness? Helen Clark had all the power because people gave it to her. in time she realised her mistake but it was too late. politicians these days do not have corporate knowledge on the profession at arms and it takes them too long to learn.
The army fares no better with the LAV debacle - how come NZ army project officers NOT allowed to talk to Aussie Army project officer on the LAV 2 - what was the Amry so scared and insecure about.
What about hanging out to dry the Engineer officers who did the terrain analysis for the SWP that proved that wheels on an AFV are useless and you need tracks? There are senior officer who should have resigned in protest on principle and some due to accountability.
If you want to know the real cause of the christchurch quakes its probably guys like Bill Slim, Keith Parke, Trenchard. Freyburg and Churchill rolling in their graves at hows things are in the grand Dominio of NZ.
Basically its not an individual or a project or any one thing rather general rot, demise malaise which probably not going to get sorted until we have another big war were abcense of any alternative will have a great way of clearing the mind
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Post by phil82 on Dec 20, 2012 5:57:41 GMT 12
I had no idea you had a service background. Which one and when?
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