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Post by KiwiC130ALM on Nov 15, 2012 14:56:01 GMT 12
Can someone reference or explain why the No. 75 Sqn Official Crest is different to the rest of the RNZAF Crests in the Sqn No. position.
I believe that because it was a RAF Sqn and then passed to the RNZAF, that is why the position of the sqn number is indented vice the rest of the RNZAF's sqn numbers that are outdented.
Look forward to the discussion.
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Post by KiwiC130ALM on Nov 15, 2012 14:57:46 GMT 12
Also just noted that the post time is one hour behind NZDT? daylight saving?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2012 17:22:50 GMT 12
Also just noted that the post time is one hour behind NZDT? daylight saving? Welcome to the forum. To overcome this you must go into your own profile and set the Daylight Savings button on your profile. Not everyone round the world is on our time zome or Daylight Savings, it's something each individual must set up. To do this, click on your User Name - kiwic130alm Hit "Modify Profile" Fill in your Password in there, twice Scoll down to Dates and Times and for Currently Observing DST select Yes. Hit "Modify Profile" at the bottom, and you're done. As for RNZAF Crests, they are actually called RNZAF Badges. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 15, 2012 17:29:08 GMT 12
As for the positioning of the number on the Badge, I don't know what you mean. The pictures I have seen of No. 75 Squadron Badge show the number 75 in the same places as all other squadrons, left and right of the circular section. What are you referring to?
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Post by raymond on Nov 15, 2012 21:36:03 GMT 12
Can someone reference or explain why the No. 75 Sqn Official Crest is different to the rest of the RNZAF Crests in the Sqn No. position. I believe that because it was a RAF Sqn and then passed to the RNZAF, that is why the position of the sqn number is indented vice the rest of the RNZAF's sqn numbers that are outdented. Look forward to the discussion. Can you put up photos of what you mean? |
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Post by KiwiC130ALM on Nov 16, 2012 7:59:43 GMT 12
example attached. Attachments:
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Post by shorty on Nov 16, 2012 8:29:10 GMT 12
Are you sure regarding them being called badges Dave? We were always taught that they were crests, I thought that they were a badge when they were without the crown and accroutments
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 16, 2012 8:33:27 GMT 12
That is what people have told me on here when I called them crests, ages back. There is a whole thread about them from days gone by showing dozens of them.
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Post by SEAN on Nov 16, 2012 11:19:11 GMT 12
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Post by errolmartyn on Nov 16, 2012 11:50:29 GMT 12
Are you sure regarding them being called badges Dave? We were always taught that they were crests, I thought that they were a badge when they were without the crown and accroutments Badge is the correct term. A crest may form part of a badge. The RAF, incidentally, has or had an Inspector of R.A.F. Badges but never an Inspector of Crests. Another similar type of error is the description of the Pilot's Flying Badge (ie 'Wings') as a brevet. Errol |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 16, 2012 17:23:59 GMT 12
I have always been under the impression that brevet was right. What is a brevet if it's not the Wings? And what should the Brevet Club really be called?
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Post by errolmartyn on Nov 16, 2012 23:19:26 GMT 12
I have always been under the impression that brevet was right. What is a brevet if it's not the Wings? And what should the Brevet Club really be called? In many a pilot's log book you will find an endorsement that reads along the lines of 'Qualified under K.R. & A.C.I. Para. 811 (5) to wear the Flying Badge w.e.f. [dated and signed]' but never one referring to 'wear the Brevet'. Ditto pre-war and WWII RNZAF Routine Orders listings of those so qualified - which are similarly headed. Errol |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 17, 2012 0:02:12 GMT 12
Interesting, Wikipedia says that a brevet in the military is a warrant to temporarily wear a higher rank than an officer's actual permanent rank. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevet_(military)So I wonder how how the flying badge became known as a brevet colloquially? |
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Post by raymond on Nov 17, 2012 12:01:54 GMT 12
Looking at the Badge/Crest the 75 Sqn one is a copy of the RAF crest/badge and that inwards square thingy appears to be standard with the RAF. The 40 Sqn one may be the "NZ format", I also note that a couple of Canadian crests are the same as the NZ ones.
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Glen T
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 85
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Post by Glen T on Nov 23, 2012 18:19:45 GMT 12
Gents, As Secretary of the 75 Squadron Association, I have made it my mission to ensure the Squadrons Badges is pictured and used correctly. Please look on my Assn website and you will see copies of the three badges. History of the 75 Squadrons.... #1, RFC, 1914-1918. #2, RAF, 1937-1940. #3, RAF(NZ), 1940-1945. #4, RNZAF, 1946-2001. The Squadron No. 75, did not have a badge until designed by a NZer and two English chaps at Newmarket Heath (Cambridge) when they were flying Short Stirlings in 1943. The King endorsed it when he visited, with a signature... and when it was presented to the Badges Office, they were ready to dismiss it as it had maori not latin, but with the Kings signature approving it.. they had to accept it. Now with the Wellington Squadron being in England at the outbreak of war, the NZ Govt 'gifted' the 30 x Wellingtons (only six had been built by this time!) and their crews to the RAF. It took until Late March 1941 before the RAF decided to keep the NZ identity together instead of spreading them out into the greater RAf squadrons. Meanwhile, 75 Sqn RAF, flying Wellingtons from Honington, was 'disbanded', and their English crews and aircraft were absorbed into a huge training wing. Several Squadrons were affected in this way, and their Sqn numbers became 'available'. The No. 75 was selected for the NZ Wellington 'Squadron', and it became the first of the bracket Squadrons during the war... denoting in this case that it had NZ connections... ie. 75(NZ) RAF. This all officially happened on the 1st April 1940. So it was an RAF sqn with NZers and six Wellingtons, that had their NZ serial numbers painted over and replaced with new RAF designations. (I have copies of the manufacturers cards of these first six Wellington's from the Badges Office at RAF Northolt when I visited there in 2009). More aircraft were quickly added to form a proper Sqn of two flights, and after several moves ended up at RAF Feltwell for a while. So 75(NZ) Squadron RAF did not have a badge until 1943. When war ended and 75(NZ) Sqn - then flying Lancasters from RAF Spilsby - was disbanded, there was discusssion about recognition of the New Zealanders committment and sacrifice to Bomber command . So it was decided to gift the Squadron Number Plate and badge to the RNZAF in 1946. Therefore, the number and the badge were officially gifted to the RNZAF, and consequently the RAF do not have a 75 Squadron, and the whole badge design... that of the RAF design, was kept by the RNZAF and only the name was changed within -from 75(New Zeland) Squadron , RAF... to... 75 Squadron RNZAF. This I believe is the most unique part about this badge. It is the only RAF formatted badge in another Air Force. If you look at the outer leaves surrounding the badges.. The RAF badges have Oak leaves, the RNZAF has Ferns, the Canadian has Maple, and the RAAF has Gum (I think!), and so on... The major differences between the commonwealth Air Force badges - besides the leaves.. is the numbers are featured outside the badge ring, the RAF has theirs internally - denoting the 'mother country' probably!, and the schroll on the base of the badge is turned up and in.. whereas the RAF badge has a flowing external and down schroll with the Latin Motto. One last feature. The Crowns of the Monarch... The King's or Tudor crown features on top of all badges and brevets during WWII. (Sqn Badges didnt actually become authorised for use by RAF Sqns until 1936!). When the Queen succeeded the King in 1953, the St Edwards crown replaced the Tudor crown on all Squadrons badges, and Air Forces Crests ...(and the police, and Customs, and and and...).... So the 75 Squadron had four seperate lives as above, and three seperate badges... #1, 1943-1945. #2, 1946-1953. #3, 1953-2001. With disbandment of the three ACF squadrons of the RNZAF in 2001, their badges, colours and numberplates were set aside from the active Air Force - thats not retirement. Officially its disbandment, and can be 'resurrected' if there is ever the re-establishment of a strike force in the RNZAF. These Sqns will be kept only for that reason, they will not be issued to any current unit or unit outside the strike theme. There are plenty of other Sqn numbers that can be used (and have been lately) for new units within the RNZAF). As I have discovered there has been many very bad and wrong reproductions of the 75 squadron badge - (inc within the RNZAF!), so I have spent a few thousand dollars of my own money with a graphic artist company and badge maker in Wellington to produce the most amazing detail in a badge to mount on my plaques I make to order. See these items on my website .. www.75squadron-raf-rnzaf.comand on faccebook ... 75 SQUADRON, RAF/ RNZAF ASSOCIATION ... Hope this all helps.... Cheers GlenT. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 23, 2012 18:41:42 GMT 12
Fascinating stuff, thanks for starting this topic kiwic130alm as I had never noticed that subtle difference, and thanks Glen for clearing it all up.
One point, despite it often being mentioned that New Zealand gifted the Wellingtons to the RAF, this is not true. From what I have established the New Zealand Government was actually re-imbursed the money they'd paid for them, so in reality they sold them to the British Government, in a gesture of goodwill. This comes out in paperwork later in the war when NZ is desperately trying to get the UK to release Catalinas and Hudsons for NZ's defence, using the excuse that the Wellingtons bought for the job went to the RAF.
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Post by davidd on Jan 6, 2013 9:03:04 GMT 12
Dave,
From my undestanding of the Wellington contract it was usually stated that the NZ Govt waived its rights to the aircraft after the British Govt accepted the NZ Govt's offer just prior to commencement of WW2 (end of August 1939). Exactly how much money was involved and how this situation was handled wil be buried somewhere in Treasury records, as were details for purchase of HMS NEW ZEALAND in 1909, and NZ obligation to support construction of the Singapore naval base in 1920s/30s. The former was financed by an off-shore loan, and latter by annual installments from normal govt income extending over a (from memory) 20 year period. So it is likely that NZ had already made some payments on the Wellingtons, but I doubt we had transferred anything like their total purchase price. No doubt the transfer arrangement was cancelled, and the cash already paid was released to meet other obligations in UK for (perhaps) other equipment being purchased, or in fact to meet any finacial obligation the NZ Govt had at the time.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jan 6, 2013 10:25:47 GMT 12
The British Government certainly recompensed the money that NZ had already paid towards the Wellingtons. The idea that has been perpetuated that NZ gifted the Wellingtons to Britain is incorrect. I have seen a British Treasury paper stating the money had been recompensed.
Your theory that it may have gone towards other British equipment purchases if interesting, that may be the case. Hinds, perhaps?
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