The RNZAF P-40 Pile

[Dave Homewood]

Yes. I have talked with several pilots who have had their entire logbooks stolen. And others who have loaned stuff to researchers and not had them returned. Sadly the details they steal never seem to get published either. I always use a digital camera to copy logbooks now, that way they never have to leave the possession of the owner.

[Tony]

Sept 13, 2011 17:12:05 GMT 12 John L said:

......and kept his hands on the album the entire time.

I met Gilbert Symonds at his home a couple of years ago and he did the exact same thing.

These thieves need to be named!
If I knew the name of one I would not hesitate to state facts....

[Dave Homewood]

I too would name and shame. Sadly all those veterans i have spoken with have forgotten the names of those they leant them too. I have seriously offered to try to follow up and recover items but they now have nothing to go on.

Several have had their logbooks stolen during house moves by the moving people. That to me says they were a deliberately targeted item that have had a value for a long time on the black market as some of these go back to the 1960's.

I know that Bill "Hawkeye" Wells had had his logbook nicked at some point and he had no idea when but it was many years ago. And fellow Battle of Britain pilot John Gard'ner had his logbooks taken too. Al Deere also had his stolen by a 'researcher'. John Arkwright still had his logbooks and photos but he told me he had a big chart that he'd made and used operationally in the Pacific when he was a Wing Commander in charge of several fighter squadrons (RNZAF and US) with the names of every single person under his command on. It was very precious to him. A researcher asked to borrow it to take to the copy shop. he allowed it and never saw the guy again he said. I really appreciated the fact that i had a digital camera on me to take photos and not items.

There seems to be a good proportion of pilots and aircrew who have also sadly lost their logbooks in fires. Brian Baber did, and Noel Hanna's wartime logbooks were lost in a barrack fire while serving in Japan.

Bob Tilsley who some of you may have met at this year's forum meet lost his in an aircraft crash, they were flying home from the islands and so had to have their logbooks aboard. On take off n engine on their Ventura died and they crashed. The crew's logbooks were all lost but they all got out, some injured. Bob had borrowed and copied some of Bill Edhouse's logbook because they two had flown together a fair bit so he has a partial record, but in my research I've found other entires in other logbooks where Bob was flying in the crew and have sent them through to him too, for which he's very grateful.

I have also met a pilot, now deceased, who flew Buffalo in the defence of Singapore and Burma, then hurricanes and then Thunderbolts. he would have had an amazing logbook but he said the binding broke on the spoine so he threw it in the bin!! Also another Battle of Britain pilot threw his logbooks in the rubbish too! Sad when that happens as much as fire and theft I think.

[Luther Moore]

There are quite a few stories on the Net about stolen logbooks,I read somewhere a guy was trying to track down his Dad's logbook after his Dad donated it to the museum and it was stolen from there.

I also read somewhere thousands of logbooks were destroyed after the war in England I think.

There are some low people out there that's for sure.

Also would flight crews in Bomber Command have logbooks?

[Andy Wright]

Couldn't agree more about some of the 'researchers' out there.

Yep, they certainly do. I've been privileged to (nervously) leaf through the logbook of an MU gunner who flew with No. 9 and 514 Sqns ... and completed 10 trips to Berlin in his tour.

[Luther Moore]

From England,

We are often asked whether we hold a specific person's log book. When aircrew were reported missing their effects were collected together and held in a central depository. Whilst in most cases their property was later handed over to next of kin, unclaimed logbooks were retained by the Air Ministry. By 1959, these unclaimed logbooks covered some 6500 feet of shelving. It was decided that representative samples would be preserved in the Public Record Office and the remainder destroyed at the end of 1960. This decision was announced in the Press and a number of people claimed logbooks. But the vast majority were destroyed, ironically just a few years before the RAF Museum was founded

[Dave Homewood]

I'm told that in New Zealand all logbooks were handed in to the authorities when the aircrew were demobilised and discharged from the service, but at a later date they were notified they could apply to have them and most did so as they were incredibly important personal records to the individual airmen. I don't know why all were collected in at that time, was it something to do with the Air Historical Branch collating data from them perhaps? they were very contientious even in the 1940's at the AHB, long before the museum was even conceived, but I don't know if they ever went to the extent of reading all the logbooks.

[Luther Moore]

Maybe they were paranoid and didn't want anyone knowing anything?

So I'm wondering now Dave, would My grandfather had to of apply for the logbook of his Brother?

Imagine how many logbooks were destroyed after the war because people didn't think how valuable they would be a few years later,6500 feet of logbook shelves destroyed,I dont even want to think about it.

[Dave Homewood]

I guess your grandfather or whoever the next of kin was got notification to apply for the logbook.

[Andy Wright]

and the remainder destroyed at the end of 1960

Oh man, that actually hurt reading that.

I've heard of chaps burning their copies, of ex-wives etc destroying them and, of course, logbooks being lost in moves, lost among boxes of stuff given away and lost/stolen when loaned to 'researchers'.

[Luther Moore]

I know what you mean Andy, it's hard to find one for sale these days,to think they destroyed 6500 ft of shelves full makes you feel sick.

[Andy Wright]

It's always heartbreaking to hear of either for the loss of the history or that an old flyer's good nature has been used ... or that he's suffered so much that destroying the record brings some closure.

[Luther Moore]

Was it common for them to destroy the logbooks because the pain of the War?if that's what you meant.

[Andy Wright]

No idea if it was common as I've only heard a couple of stories about logbooks being destroyed by their owners. We can only hope it helped them recover.

[John L]

With digital cameras and even laptops and scanners, there's no reason to try and "borrow" things like logbooks and photo's nowadays. If a researcher is serious, he should and could do any copying "on site"

[Luther Moore]

That's what I would do,bring a laptop and scanner.Scanner is the best thing for it so you can scan the pages and zoom into parts you could't see in a photo by a camera.
Scanners are very good for old photo's,some of the photo's I have scanned you can zoom right in to see the face on the Pilot's in planes and even planes in the background.

I wonder if like Dave said there are photo's of these crashes mentioned in the Endorsement form?

[Luther Moore]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Calum]

Great thread this. Thanks to all you've posted the photos

[oldjagman]

My Uncle Eric Harrison flew one of the aircraft in the picture (No 14 Fighter Squadron Trio). I have this Official RNZAF Photo and one of HQ-Q diving away, this has Uncle Eric's Photo inset. He also flew Corsairs.

[lesterpk]

Sept 14, 2011 23:03:35 GMT 12 Andy Wright said:

It's always heartbreaking to hear of either for the loss of the history or that an old flyer's good nature has been used ... or that he's suffered so much that destroying the record brings some closure.

My Dad was in the 18th Battalion and captured in Greece while fighting to allow others to escape to Crete. He spent 4 years as a POW in Austria. He rarely talked about his time and apparently he kept a diary throughout the entire war and his POW time, he threw it overboard on the ship home as he didn't want to remember. Oh how I wish I could read it now that he has gone.