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Post by camtech on May 25, 2014 16:34:02 GMT 12
Would a glide slope indicator be used by the Oxfords of the Beam Approach Training Flight?
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Post by camtech on May 25, 2014 16:55:12 GMT 12
NZ1083 - groundlooped at Kaitaia during Wise Owl 1 Oct 75. Pilot A P/O D Middlemass. Investigation indicated pilot who was of short stature, could not effectively apply brakes during landing - blocks should have been fitted. Middlemass graduated and became one of the youngest captains on freighters.
The aircraft was returned to Wigram via a C130, but was badly damaged during loading/unloading and written off to Inst212.
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Post by baz62 on May 25, 2014 17:05:59 GMT 12
NZ1083 - groundlooped at Kaitaia during Wise Owl 1 Oct 75. Are you referring to the photo of her on her nose? As the colour scheme isn't 1975. 65 maybe? Also she took part in the flypast upon retirement in 1977 and is a reserve aircraft for the Historic Flight. Maybe they changed their minds and repaired her. |
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Post by camtech on May 25, 2014 17:33:32 GMT 12
Sorry Baz - you are right. Just found a newspaper cutting with that exact photo - no specific date, except 1964. The pilot in that case was A P/O B S McLean. Again, believed to be a ground loop.
The 1975 prang, at Kaikohoe, not Kaitaia, was as described, but I boobed on the damage. Obviously it was not as bad as I thought, and the aircraft survived to take part in the farewell flypast, then to become Inst212.
I found an article from RNZAF Flight Safety describing the 1975 incident, which caused Category 3 damage.
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Post by baz62 on May 25, 2014 18:19:27 GMT 12
ha ha no need to apologize you know way more than me about the RNZAF, call it more seeing if I missed something about 1083's history as I'm still learning!  |
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Post by camtech on May 25, 2014 19:13:22 GMT 12
Thanks for that, but when i read posts on here, I learn a hell of a lot more.
I enjoy watching the old photos come to light and helping to fill in the picture about each aircraft.
1083 had an interest to me more for the pilot as Duncan Middlemass flew one of the last B170 flights of the NZ based aircraft, and had a great time at the ensuing party!.
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Post by davidd on May 26, 2014 11:26:01 GMT 12
Camtech,
I don't think that glide slope indicator had anything to do with the beam approach system, from memory just outer marker beacon, inner marker beacon, and the main beacon, with NO visual equipment required, such as lights or ground markers. Because the Standard Beam Approach System (SBAS, previously known as blind approach, and prior to that as ZZ, or the Lorenz system, which was the original German name) was aligned directly in line with the equipped runway, which may or may not be aligned with the prevailing wind at the time, and was designed 'to enable the pilot of an aircraft to locate and land at an airfield in QBI conditions, by means of automatic signals', any visual apparatus on the ground such as a glide slope indicator would be superfluous. This very brief brief description of the system is based on an official Air Ministry instruction issued by the Directorate of Flying Training in February 1943. Original instructions occupy 16 pages, including several helpful diagrams - most informative.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 26, 2014 11:56:13 GMT 12
Would it have been Exercise Wise Owl in 1975? I thought back then they called it Exercise Red Owl, and the name changed when the CT/4's took over in 1978 to Wise Owl?
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Post by camtech on May 26, 2014 12:22:51 GMT 12
Would it have been Exercise Wise Owl in 1975? I thought back then they called it Exercise Red Owl, and the name changed when the CT/4's took over in 1978 to Wise Owl? Could well be Dave - not sure when the change happened. The accident report said "a tented camp". |
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Post by camtech on May 26, 2014 12:26:08 GMT 12
Camtech, I don't think that glide slope indicator had anything to do with the beam approach system, from memory just outer marker beacon, inner marker beacon, and the main beacon, with NO visual equipment required, such as lights or ground markers. Because the Standard Beam Approach System (SBAS, previously known as blind approach, and prior to that as ZZ, or the Lorenz system, which was the original German name) was aligned directly in line with the equipped runway, which may or may not be aligned with the prevailing wind at the time, and was designed 'to enable the pilot of an aircraft to locate and land at an airfield in QBI conditions, by means of automatic signals', any visual apparatus on the ground such as a glide slope indicator would be superfluous. This very brief brief description of the system is based on an official Air Ministry instruction issued by the Directorate of Flying Training in February 1943. Original instructions occupy 16 pages, including several helpful diagrams - most informative. David D David, I was thinking of a structure that would assist the pilot to be on the correct glideslope at the appropriate distance from touch down. I know of the outer, inner marker setup. I'll have to have a dig around and see what I can find about early precision approach systems. Les |
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Post by camtech on May 26, 2014 13:04:37 GMT 12
Doing a bit of digging via Google re a glide slope indicator, I believe that a system of shielded lights was involved, probably housed in a solid wooden structure on the side of the designated runway. Even though UHF/VHF systems were in use, their sophistication was beyond the capabilities of our aircraft at that time. RAF heavy bombers were fitted with an ILS indicator which showed direction and glideslope.
Would love to find a photo of the set up here in NZ.
Les
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Post by tbf25o4 on May 26, 2014 16:46:17 GMT 12
the photo of NZ1083 on its nose at Wigram brought back some memories.
I was in Base Ops watching the red checkers coming in from the Lake Ellesmere direction from a practice session and then in formation
they commenced a loop, and when coming on the down side of the loop I looked out across the airfield to see just in
front of the tower a Harvard on its nose and the crew running away from the aircraft. Nobody else had noticed
the accident and it was about a minute later that the tower crew set the crash alarm off. They had also been watching upwards
at the Harvard formation. the date would have been late 1966 or early 1967 as the team was practicing for the big open day.
Of interest there was no accident card in the register for this accident, either an oversight to protect the guilty or
the damage was considered to be minor.
From memory the accident occurred as the instructor thought that the student was leaving the braking a little too late
and both he and the student stood on the brakes at the same time!
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Post by suthg on May 26, 2014 19:26:18 GMT 12
Sounds like an embarressed instructor as well!
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Post by davidd on May 28, 2014 12:00:53 GMT 12
Re the glide slope indicator in use in NZ in 1944. Forget VHF and UHF - at that time in NZ you were lucky to get HF equipment on training aircraft such as the Oxford! Most Harvards and no radio at all, and signal lamps, ground signals and flares, etc, were the thing, plus a good briefing. VHF was for operational aircraft only, with those based in operational theatres getting priority. However, returning to the glide slope indicator, some kind of wooden apparatus on the ground with lights does sound quite plausible. Most training aircraft in New Zealand had no radios at all, or the bare minimum. In late 1943 at Wigram it was noted that the Oxfords used on night cross country exercises carried obsolete 1082/1083 HF equipment which required a trained operator to be carried, and was Morse only. They also had TR9D R/T (voice only) but its range was so short and tuning so variable that it was said that it was often usual for first contact to be made after landing and occuured as the aircraft taxied up to the tarmac! These old and inefficient sets were used in the Battle of Britain, and the reason the RNZAF got them was that the RAF did not want, nor need them.
David D
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Post by davidd on May 28, 2014 12:06:52 GMT 12
Re the Wise/Red Owl quandry. Entry from the RNZAF Chronology:
12 – 21/11/75; Exercise WISE OWL 14, held at Kaikohe by PTS staff and pupils of 1/75 Course. This was in fact the RED OWL series of exercises re-named but continuing in the same numbered series.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 28, 2014 23:51:19 GMT 12
Thanks David, I stand corrected.
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Post by NZ1009 on May 29, 2014 0:40:30 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 29, 2014 10:19:33 GMT 12
Great photos!
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Post by NZ1009 on Jun 30, 2014 23:34:11 GMT 12
Some interesting photos and text here - I think NZ1023 is taking off in formation to the North-West at Wigram rather than being in a formation landing. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 1, 2014 0:07:35 GMT 12
That's a great page, and some very nice photos. A few of those names seem familiar but I am not sure why.
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