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Post by sparrow on Mar 6, 2013 9:35:48 GMT 12
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Post by flyjoe180 on Mar 7, 2013 11:20:07 GMT 12
Thanks for posting this sparrow. I was wondering if he was the chap involved in the collision that downed Bader, but it seems he had a cold and was not flying that day.
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Post by obiwan27 on Mar 7, 2013 11:46:51 GMT 12
IIRC from reading 'Reach for the Sky' - Bader's collison involved a 109 in combat.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 7, 2013 11:58:04 GMT 12
That "collison" story was rubbish (along with a lot of other stuff in the "Reach For the Sky" book and film.
Bader was actually shot down by his wingman Buck Casson, no Bf109 was involved at all. Both Bader and Casson were downed the same day and ended up as POW's together.
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Post by baz62 on Mar 7, 2013 13:09:44 GMT 12
That "collison" story was rubbish (along with a lot of other stuff in the "Reach For the Sky" book and film. Bader was actually shot down by his wingman Buck Casson, no Bf109 was involved at all. Both Bader and Casson were downed the same day and ended up as POW's together. Well I certainly didn't know about this twist to Bader's "shootdown". So did Bader know he'd been downed by Casson or did he think it was a collision with a 109? If he knew that explained the missing leg when he was captured. He stuck it up Casson's rear end!! Didn't know the book (and film) is rubbish as i enjoyed the story. Was it a case of the truth being "embellished" or modified? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 7, 2013 13:52:06 GMT 12
It has not been fully established if either Bader or Casson knew but it's likely, and it's likely they cooked up the story between themselves - how bad woiuld it be to admit that the RAF's most well known ace hero was shot down by his own wingman. And how would Casson feel too (even if most pilots who flew with Bader probably would have congratulated him, as he was roundly unpopular for his obnoxious, priggish attitude).
These facts about the shoot down came to light a few years back when historians realised no BF109's were lost that day - yet Bader claimed to have collided with a Bf109 and its wing came off. Colliding with a German rather than being shot down by one was better for Bader's ego. Casson claimed a kill that day but no german aircraft were lost, only Bader's Spitifre other than Casson's. A team went hunting for Bader's aircraft, which included our own Peter Arnold. They didn't find it but they found another Spitfire. This whole story is in the excellent TV programme Who Downed Bader? The team and the TV show was led by well known aviation historian Andy Saunders. It was Andy's research hat has proven a great deal ofthe Brickhill book is fantasy, probably misled by the egotistical Bader.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Mar 8, 2013 9:34:20 GMT 12
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Post by sparrow on Mar 8, 2013 11:06:53 GMT 12
I have that doco Dave, on dvd, it came out in Aug '06 and is quite interesting, in fact I've just stuck it on.
PM me if you want a copy.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2013 13:59:57 GMT 12
I have a copy thanks.
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Post by chinapilot on Mar 8, 2013 15:10:21 GMT 12
Well I guess if it was on TV it must be true...  Interesting that Smith was a Sgt Pilot then. As flyjoe180 posted there is plenty to Google about the collision/ shootdown. Wonder what happened to Bill Russell the Kiwi 485sq pilot who had one of his arms amputated in the same St Omer hospital Bader was taken to? Don't have the details to hand but it is claimed that these 'defensive patrols', 'rhubarbs' etc etc cost more RAF aircraft than lost in the BofB for very little benefit...lost many experienced pilots over France as did the Germans over England in the BofB. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 8, 2013 15:52:38 GMT 12
When you see that very renowned and dedicated historians like Andy Saunders and Peter Arnold are involved I tend to believe what they say over a novel written inn the 1950's.
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Post by chinapilot on Mar 8, 2013 17:55:01 GMT 12
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 8, 2013 18:19:56 GMT 12
Wonder what happened to Bill Russell the Kiwi 485sq pilot who had one of his arms amputated in the same St Omer hospital Bader was taken to? From my For Your Tomorrow - A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915 (Volume Two: Fates 1943-1998): Wed 28 Feb 1945 FIGHTER COMMAND Anti-aircraft co-operation exercise 631 Squadron, RAF (Towyn, Merionethshire - 70 Group) Henley I L3276 - towards 1500, after about an hour’s flight, attempted to return to base after the engine began to fail. Realising on approach that height could not be maintained to reach the airfield, the pilot elected to ditch to the north, in the mouth of the River Dysynni, but he lost control at the last moment and dived into the water. He is buried at Chester. Investigators concluded that as the pilot had an artificial left arm he may have lost control when lowering the flaps, an action that would require him to hold the control column between his knees. Pilot: NZ40987 Plt Off William Henry RUSSELL, RNZAF - Age 25. 456hrs (51 solo on Henley) 39 ops. Russell’s 39 ops were flown with 485 Sqn, RNZAF. He lost his arm on the last op when shot down over Northern France on 12 August 1941. Held prisoner of war for over two years, he resumed flying duty after being repatriated in October 1943.Errol |
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Post by chinapilot on Mar 8, 2013 21:31:50 GMT 12
Thanks Errol...was hoping you would see that query Sad end for him especially after being repatriated... |
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