Pearse replica — will it fly?

[brucie]

No problem,that is a quick fix, I will knock something up this weekend!But seriously, the propeller is based on the remains that are displayed at MOTAT. I am happy that is the only discrepancy of note.i will get around to posting excerpts from that letter, it is 28 pages, and Pearse does ramble on. Are you familiar with this letter ?

[brucie]

Jul 29, 2024 6:26:37 GMT 12 brucie said:

No problem,that is a quick fix, I will knock something up this weekend!But seriously, the propeller is based on the remains that are displayed at MOTAT. I am happy that is the only discrepancy of note.i will get around to posting excerpts from that letter, it is 28 pages, and Pearse does ramble on. Are you familiar with this letter ?

[brucie]

From Pearse's letter "Detailed description of private plane", this is not a new letter, and can be found with a bit of research. Description of his last vertical take off and landing aircraft. The letter is 28 pages, so I will not repeat it in its entirety. Explaining the engine in this aircraft:

"The double acting petrol motor not only doubles the power for a given weight, but it solves the problem of lubrication which is at present causing trouble and concern. There is no side pressure between the piston and the cylinder wall in the double acting type, as this comes on the cross head slide guides or their equivalent, similar to a steam engine, and as these are cool the oil is not burned, and the cylinders are not worn oval, and best of all they may be made a very slack fit without piston slap taking place, so that the piston seizure caused by heat expansion of the piston, will be impossible."

"I am speaking from a very long experience as regards the motor as Orville Wright of America and I of New Zealand are the sole survivors of the early pioneers of the motor driven aeroplane, with the single exception of the petrol motor designed and made by Manly for the Langly aeroplane trials which took place in the middle of 1903, and at the end of 1903,
we were the only pioneer inventors who developed and made our own motor, for the simple reason that they could not be brought at the time."

"I started work on an aeroplane motor about the second month in 1904 a few months after the failure of the Langly aeroplane to fly on December 1903.
My first motor had 4 cylinders of 4 1/4 bore and 4 1/4 stroke which was near the same as the Wrights second motor, which startled the world by making extended flights in 1905, although they had to employee a catapult apparatus to get clear of the ground. My first motor proved inadequate to get off the ground, so I devised and built a second 4 cylinder motor of the double acting cylinders and piston type, with the bore increased by 1/4 inch and the stroke the same as the first motor, as I used the same crank shaft that I had in the first motor"

"This motor lifted the aeroplane clear off the ground in still air, when running at less then 1000 revolutions per minute, which is now considered half speed, but as the aeroplne in those days had no body, it immediately went into a spin and crashed. The motor was not included in my 1906 patent which was the same year as Wrights first patent, and before their more complete second patent in 1907. I offered to sell this "secret" motor to the British Government during the first great war and got the reply that owing to the great shortage of labour they could not affors to divert labour from proved motors."

"I was the first to patent the idea of small hinged horizontal rudders at the wing tips for balancing laterally which are now called ailerons, while Wrights adopted wing warping which was originated by Mouillard, and improved by Wrights. My June 19, 1906 aeroplnes patent also contained the first tricycle undercarriage with 3 air tyred wheels for starting and landing, while Wright followed Maxim and Langly in employing a launching catapult. I was also the first to place the propellor direct on the crankshaft to make it function as a fly wheel, and to eliminate clutches and gearing and to reduce turning torque reactions. Also the first to place the propellor in front"

Pearse does not mention his first 2 cylinder motor, as he regarded his experiments on flight pre 1904 as not achieving practical "aerial navigation", and they were not.
He was still hopping and crashing in an unstable machine, but he was experimenting around the same time as the Wrights, and not as late as 1909.
He does not include the "secret" 4 cylinder motor in the patent, but gives a detailed description of his abandoned 2 cylinder motor. His first 4 cylinder single acting motor was a step backwards, probably twice the weight for the same horsepower.

[Dave Homewood]

I do not know either way whether he flew first or didn't, and frankly I do not care. But Richard Pearse's brother talked about the first two flights in an interview published in the Press, on 21 September 1959. It shows how problematic trying to pinpoint an event that took place decades before, and 121 years ago now, can be.

Timaru Man Was A Pioneer Of Flight

(From Our Own Reporter)

TIMARU, September 20. When the late Mr Richard Pearse, of Waitohi, near Timaru, heard that the Wright brothers had flown he lost heart, because he realised that the generous prize offered by an American magazine to the first man who could fly a certain distance was not to be his — “in spite of the fact that he had already made two trial flights,” said his brother and one-time mechanic, Mr Digory Warne Pearse, aged 77, a retired farmer, of Pages road, Timaru.

This appears to establish that Mr Pearse, as Mr G. B. Bolt, chief engineer of Tasman Empire Airways, Ltd., claimed recently, was the first person to fly a heavier-than-air craft.

Mr Pearse said that although there was nothing to impress on his memory the exact date of the first flight it was acknowledged in America that his brother had patented wing and tail controls ahead of the Wright brothers.

“The same principles were later patented by the Wright brothers,” Mr Pearse said. ‘‘He had two flights from a chain-wide roadway adjoining the property at Waitohi,” Mr Pearse said. On both occasions the machine veered to the left for a distance of about a quarter of a mile before the undercarriage caught the top of a gorse fence about 10 to 12 feet high.

Magazine Prize
‘‘My brother was mechanically minded,” Mr Pearse said. “The ‘Scientific American’ was offering the sum of £10,000 to the first man to fly a certain distance and he made up his mind to have a go.

“He made a 25 horse-power engine weighing 50lb which he claimed was the lightest engine in the world for its power. This was about 1900. He built the machine on the farm, having already made his own lathe. The machine, of bamboo construction, was aluminium-joined to achieve lightness, and had an eight-blade propeller, the base of which was made from a cut-down sheep dip tin.

“After the first trial flight it was found that the engine was not powerful enough to lift the craft and he fashioned a 90 horsepower engine.

“I turned the propeller and the machine went into the air,” Mr Pearse said.

When his brother went to Milton about 1905-06 he built a power-cycle incorporating parts of the engine of the first aircraft, Mr Pearse said. After the First World War his brother made a second utility craft, the principles of which were embodied in later aircraft.

“I am quite sure that the honour of having flown the first heavier-than-air craft was my brother’s. I can recall how disheartened he was, when, having accomplished so much, he heard that the distinction — and the prize — was shared by the Wright brothers,” Mr Pearse said.

As far as I can find on Papers Past, the earliest mention in the New Zealand media that the Wright Brothers had flown was as early as the 11th of March 1904, in the Star (Christchurch), when it was said:

BALLOONLESS AIRSHIP

Messrs Wilbur and Orville "Wright, of Ohio, on December 17, successfully experimented with a flying machine at Kittyhawk, North Carolina. The machine has no balloon attachment, and derives its force from propellers worked by a small engine. In the face of a wind blowing twenty-one miles an hour the machine flew three miles at the rate of eight miles an hour, and descended to a point selected in advance. The idea of the box-kite was used in the construction of the airship.

Now this is particularly interesting as at that time very few newspapers in the USA had picked up the story as most did not believe it to be true, and the Wrights' achievement remained largely unknown for a long time. It was actually about 1905-6 that people really started to grasp that the Wrights had indeed flown, and that by then they'd developed flight more substantially back home in Dayton to a point where they could fly much longer and higher and without the need of a strong wind. It only really became believed when they tried to sell the secrets to the French Government, as the US govt had shown no interest, and that move then got the US govt to look at it again and realise they were not shysters.

However, this article published in the Poverty Bay Herald on the 26th of January 1907 seems to indicate that as late as that time, the Wrights had not actually claimed the Daily Mail prize for the first flight. I am not sure when the article was first published before being syndicated in the Poverty Bay Herald, but this blows Digory Pearse's notion that Richard had read that they'd claimed the prize and that Richard had flown before them, as there is around a three year period there when Richard could have made his initial flights AFTER the Wrights.
paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/PBH19070126.2.77

I think we will never ever know the full story and there is way too much doubt involved to ever claim Pearse flew first. I do not think he did, but he certainly was an interesting chap and one of NZ's first aircraft homebuilders.

[johnnyfalcon]

Digory...!

[Antonio]

Aug 1, 2024 15:57:12 GMT 12 johnnyfalcon said:

Digory...!

Mr Digory Warne Pearse

[johnnyfalcon]

Aug 1, 2024 16:00:43 GMT 12 Antonio said:

Aug 1, 2024 15:57:12 GMT 12 johnnyfalcon said:

Digory...!

Mr Digory Warne Pearse

Yeah, I got that. But...Digory? Not Digby, Digger, Douglas..,even Dick?
I know, I'm out of touch. And Wilbur and Orville have the same out-of-style presence, by 100 years (give or take). Well, Dick and Digory Pearse...I guess

[Dave Homewood]

Digory Pearse was named after his father, Digory Sargent Pearse.

www.wikitree.com/wiki/Pearse-414

[Dave Homewood]

Digory Warne Pearce was known to all as Warne.

He was a well known tennis player, and served in WWI as a Lieutenant. He was wounded in 1916. He named his son Richard Warne Pearse, after his brother, and this Richard Pearse lived till 2011.

[Dave Homewood]

As an aside to Richard Pearse's story, the Timaru Herald published a detailed article on the 8th of February 1928 about his father Digory Sargent Pearse, which gives a backstory to the family and their resourcefulness.

INTERESTING BIOGRAPHIC OUTLINES OF NOTABLE SETTLERS

DIGORY SARGENT PEARSE.

Digory Sargent Pearse was born on the 5th June, 1844, at South Petherwin, a village three miles from the town of Launceston in the. county of Cornwall. England. He was educated at the Priory House Academy, Launceston, a famous public school where students were earned on to the study of Higher Maths, and the Classics. On leaving college he joined his father, a prosperous farmer, in order to acquire/ a full knowledge of everything appertaining to general farming and stock-raising.

At the age of twenty years and one month, well equipped for the warfare of life, he left Plymouth for Port Adelaide, South Australia, by the ship “Murray,” in charge 'of Captain Smart. The Murray was the last word in ship construction at that time, and carried thirty passengers in addition to her crew. One of the'passengers, a big, strong Irishman, suffered ill his mentality owing to sea-sickhessj He struck the cook’s mate a terrific blow with liis fist of .sufficient force to fell a bullock, and remarked to the unfortunate man, “Now, that’s only a caution!” There were no ports of call, and land was not sighted during the three months’ voyage until Port Adelaido loomed in the distance.

On landing at Adelaide Digory Pearse stayed with his uncle, Air Amos Sargent, a retired brewer, who had purchased an extensive area of land and was then general farming. His uncle’s place was near Kapuda, about twenty miles from -Adelaide. The weather at the time was very sultry and the thermometer registered one hundred and twenty degrees in the shade. Ploughing operations were being carried on with four-furrowed ploughs and eight-horse teams; the drought was of such a nature as to preclude the possibility of weeds growing on summer-fallowed land. In order to acquire colonial experience, Digory Pearse sojourned with his uncle for seven months and then journeyed to New Zealand via Melbourne. His uncle made the trip also in order to see a sister (Mrs Parrish) who lived on the Lincoln Road six miles from Christchurch. 

Arriving at Port Lyttelton in 1865, uncle and nephew carried their baggage to Christchurch where Mr Sargent hired a hansom-cab to convey them to Mrs Parrish’s, a distance of six miles, at a cost of seventeen shillings. In order to gain practical experience of New Zealand conditions young Pearse, who was then twenty-one years of age, took a position as ploughman with Mr John Brooks and stayed with him seven months.

He then came down to Sooth Canterbury alone and selected and purchased a farm of one hundred and fifty acres at Waitohi. After paying for the land, he rejoined his Uncle Parrish on the Lincoln Road for a month and then took a position harvesting with Messrs Fred Murray and William Callum, who were in partnership, and had two big farms, one in the Selwyn and the other in the Lincoln district.

The wheat in those days was cut with a reaper which one man drove whilst another man walked and pulled the wheat off the reaper with a rake for five men to tie. Twenty acres were cut each day. When this harvest of three hundred acres—wheat, oats and barley—was finished, young Pearse took to horse-dealing, in which business his knowledge and sound judgment enabled him to get together a nice sum of money in the short period of twelve months.

Being well in funds, he then decided to work the one hundred and fifty acres of land at Waitohi which he had purchased some eighteen months previously. Before leaving the Christchurch district, he purchased a strong horse and dray with which to travel down to Waitohi. The journey involved the crossing of the rivers Selwyn. Rangitata, and Oran. In those days it was necessary to secure the services of a pilot in order to ford the Rangitata. On the north bank of the river there lived a strong man named Wright, who charged 2s 6d to pilot the dray over the big volume of water.

Mr Pearse broke his journey at Ashburton and Orari, staying a night at each place. Whilst at Ashburton he heard a waggoner sing that pathetic ballad, "Father, dear Father, come home with me. Now the cIock on the steeple strikes one. You promised, dear father, that you would come home as soon as your day’s work was done.”

This song was written at a time when there was considerable heavy drinking in the Old Country, and it certainly exercised an influence for good on many who came under the spell of its plaintive strains.

Waitohi was duly reached, and Mr Pearse engaged a man, named Scott, to build a single room sod hut with thatched roof, in which he commenced homesteading, and continued to live for a couple of years. During, this time considerable improvements were effected. Mr Pearse fenced the farm himself, and had some of the ploughing done by a hired, man, whom he paid 25/- a week, besides providing his food for working a single-furrow plough and two horses. This ploughman, whose Christian name was Stephen, was a great worker.

One of the horses, “Billy,” was somewhat old-fashioned, and used to get the idea into his head that it was five o’clock when it was only four forty-five. On these occasions it was necessary for Steve to show “Billy” his watch before he would resume work.

Steve had saved five hundred pounds at that time, and when he had added to this sum the wages paid to him by Mr Pearse, he returned to England to marry the girl of his heart.

Life was getting somewhat lonesome for Digory Sargent Pearse, and he more than ever became convinced that “it is not good for man to be alone.” For some little time he had had his eye on a charming young lady, named Sarah Brown, who hailed from the County of Derry, and was then living with her sister, Mrs K. F. Gray in Temuka. He became more closely associated with the lady, and, being a man who always knew his own mind, he quickly put the plain, straightforward, question to Sarah Brown, who was so captivated with the manliness, and charm of her stalwart young suitor, that she gently, and graciously acquiesced in the proposal of a bond of indissoluble union for life.

It was intended that the Rev. Foster, of Timaru, should marry the couple, but owing to an inadvertence, the bride and bridegroom exceeded the time limit, and could not be married by him on the day arranged. Church of England clergymen conducted marrlage ceremonies only up to twelve noon at that time, marriage by them after that hour of the day being regarded as invalid. To get over the difficulty the ardent couple interviewed the Presbyterian minister, the Rev. George Barclay, and he married them at the. Royal Hotel, Timaru, the same day.

Mr and Mrs Pearse commenced their married life in a four-roomed sod hut, which in due time was displaced by a good, solid house, of Kakahu stone. Mr Pearse prospered and kept addling to his one hundred and fifty acres by the purchase of additional land, ranging in price from eight pounds to thirty pounds per acre, until his holding reached a total of seven hundred and ninety-five acres freehold, which he now holds unencumbered.

Mr Pearse will be eighty-four next June, and Mrs Pearse recently attained her fourscore years. They have five sons and four daughters. Four of the sons — Jack, Dick, Warne and Reg., are successful farmers, and the first son, Tom, is a doctor practising in Hobart, Tasmania. Two daughters are married and two unmarried, the latter sharing the halcyon days enjoyed by their parents at "Lanrue", Mr Pearse’s residential property in a sequestered spot across the Temuka river, and but ten minutes’ walk from the Temuka Post Office.

[Antonio]

Ahhhhh loved it!

"At the age of twenty years and one month, well equipped for the warfare of life"  

[errolmartyn]

Aug 1, 2024 7:02:01 GMT 12 brucie said:

From Pearse's letter "Detailed description of private plane", this is not a new letter, and can be found with a bit of research. Description of his last vertical take off and landing aircraft. The letter is 28 pages, so I will not repeat it in its entirety. Explaining the engine in this aircraft:

"The double acting petrol motor not only doubles the power for a given weight, but it solves the problem of lubrication which is at present causing trouble and concern. There is no side pressure between the piston and the cylinder wall in the double acting type, as this comes on the cross head slide guides or their equivalent, similar to a steam engine, and as these are cool the oil is not burned, and the cylinders are not worn oval, and best of all they may be made a very slack fit without piston slap taking place, so that the piston seizure caused by heat expansion of the piston, will be impossible."

"I am speaking from a very long experience as regards the motor as Orville Wright of America and I of New Zealand are the sole survivors of the early pioneers of the motor driven aeroplane, with the single exception of the petrol motor designed and made by Manly for the Langly aeroplane trials which took place in the middle of 1903, and at the end of 1903,
we were the only pioneer inventors who developed and made our own motor, for the simple reason that they could not be brought at the time."

"I started work on an aeroplane motor about the second month in 1904 a few months after the failure of the Langly aeroplane to fly on December 1903.
My first motor had 4 cylinders of 4 1/4 bore and 4 1/4 stroke which was near the same as the Wrights second motor, which startled the world by making extended flights in 1905, although they had to employee a catapult apparatus to get clear of the ground. My first motor proved inadequate to get off the ground, so I devised and built a second 4 cylinder motor of the double acting cylinders and piston type, with the bore increased by 1/4 inch and the stroke the same as the first motor, as I used the same crank shaft that I had in the first motor"

"This motor lifted the aeroplane clear off the ground in still air, when running at less then 1000 revolutions per minute, which is now considered half speed, but as the aeroplne in those days had no body, it immediately went into a spin and crashed. The motor was not included in my 1906 patent which was the same year as Wrights first patent, and before their more complete second patent in 1907. I offered to sell this "secret" motor to the British Government during the first great war and got the reply that owing to the great shortage of labour they could not affors to divert labour from proved motors."

"I was the first to patent the idea of small hinged horizontal rudders at the wing tips for balancing laterally which are now called ailerons, while Wrights adopted wing warping which was originated by Mouillard, and improved by Wrights. My June 19, 1906 aeroplnes patent also contained the first tricycle undercarriage with 3 air tyred wheels for starting and landing, while Wright followed Maxim and Langly in employing a launching catapult. I was also the first to place the propellor direct on the crankshaft to make it function as a fly wheel, and to eliminate clutches and gearing and to reduce turning torque reactions. Also the first to place the propellor in front"

Pearse does not mention his first 2 cylinder motor, as he regarded his experiments on flight pre 1904 as not achieving practical "aerial navigation", and they were not.
He was still hopping and crashing in an unstable machine, but he was experimenting around the same time as the Wrights, and not as late as 1909.
He does not include the "secret" 4 cylinder motor in the patent, but gives a detailed description of his abandoned 2 cylinder motor. His first 4 cylinder single acting motor was a step backwards, probably twice the weight for the same horsepower.

(a) "I started work on an aeroplane motor about the second month in 1904” (Pearse)

Pearse does not mention his first 2 cylinder motor, as he regarded his experiments on flight pre 1904 as not achieving practical "aerial navigation", and they were not. (Mudrovcich – contradicts Pearse’s own statement)

(b) My first motor proved inadequate to get off the ground, so I devised and built a second 4 cylinder motor of the double acting cylinders and piston type, with the bore increased by 1/4 inch and the stroke the same as the first motor, as I used the same crank shaft that I had in the first motor"

“For instance, seven crank shafts were made and broken until one was found strong enough.” (Sam H. Carter’s account of his visit to Pearse, published in the Otago Witness, 1 December 1909) According to Gordon Ogilvie’s The Riddle of Richard Pearse, Pearse also had some assistance in the construction of his engine from the Timaru engineering firm of Parr and Company.

(c) "I was the first to patent the idea of small hinged horizontal rudders at the wing tips for balancing laterally which are now called ailerons,

His ‘rudders’ were not ailerons (the invention of which predated the 20th Century). Pearse misunderstood the function of his rudders - their use would have resulted in the opposite to what he intended.

(d) He was still hopping and crashing in an unstable machine, but he was experimenting around the same time as the Wrights, and not as late as 1909.

The Wright Brothers began their experiments (starting with gliders) in 1896 and made their first successful powered flight in December 1903. Pearse, in his own words, did not commence work on his engine until early 1904 and did not make ‘hops’ or flights before late 1909.

Summary of earliest published accounts of his flight attempts:

(1) He intends to make a trial flight with his airship [sic] at an early date. (Press, 3 Nov 09)

(2) The inventor of an airship [sic], a farmer living near Temuka, made a trial flight with the ship a day or two ago. He took it on to a hill in a field of wheat and set the motor going, but the machine refused to use its wings in the desired way, and fluttered down the hill aimlessly. (Tuapeka Times, 17 Nov 09)

(3) A long column-and-a-half report of a visit by its reporter to Pearse on 16 Nov 09 and published in next day's The Timaru Post, includes a lengthy verbatim account by Pearse himself. “. . . As you may imagine, after five years’ labour without a return, and the expenditure of about £300 in raw material, I cannot afford to take any risks with my machine. Next week, if my trial is satisfactory, I will make preparations for the giving of public exhibitions. . . .”

(4) Sam Carter’s account of his visit to Pearse appears in the Otago Witness, 1 Dec 09. “In a wheat field ten miles inland from Temuka stands an aeroplane starting derrick, made familiar by means of the illustrated papers and cinematograph pictures. The big tripod is the first sign to inform a visitor that New Zealand has at last a flying machine actually made and ready for trial. Near by is the aeroplane itself, where it landed after a short jump, which, though of a few yards only, is the first attempted flight of a heavier-than air machine in the Dominion. . . .

(5) “. . . has already had some trials, and has been off the ground several times, but it is not easy to balance her. He has improved on previous performances every time, and in his latest effort he flew about 25 yards. We believe it is the intention of Mr Pearse to make a 50 horse power engine …” The Temuka Leader and Geraldine Guardian (same account in both papers, 14 Dec 09)

(6) “. . . has made a number of successful flights of 200, 300, and 400 yards. He is not, however, satisfied with the power of his 25 h.p. petrol engine (his own invention) weighing only 100lb, and is now busy installing a 50 h.p. engine (also his own invention) weighing 110lb. . . ” The Timaru Post, 31 Jan 10

The newspapers appear to have lost interest in following Pearse’s progress at this point, no further contemporaneous reports having surfaced to the knowledge of this writer.

Errol

[brucie]

At what date then Errol, did he produce the 2 cylinder engine ? Or do you believe that did not exist.

[errolmartyn]

Aug 8, 2024 6:23:55 GMT 12 brucie said:

At what date then Errol, did he produce the 2 cylinder engine ? Or do you believe that did not exist.

Your evidence for Pearse beginning his work on an aeroplane motor prior to 1904 is?

Errol

[nuuumannn]

Jul 28, 2024 12:25:35 GMT 12 errolmartyn said:

I do have a copy of a hand written letter by Pearse, written after the construction of his Converter Plane, in which he also describes his earlier experiments in 1903/1904, I will post on this forum at a later date. (Brucie, 21 Jul 24)

No sign yet of the letter, but meanwhile . . .

Read the patent, and look at the aircraft, everything that is described, from the "articulated" elevator, not hinged, the "wing rudders" and the bulging wing trusses of 3 ft is present. (Brucie, 21 Jul 24)

Well, not quite ‘everything’, it seems, as Pearse in the Complete Specification of his 1906-1907 patent includes, for instance, a description of his propeller:

". . . The form of propellor [sic] that is preferred, consists of a pair of canvas sails s each one of which is stretched across between the ends of a pair of arms t extending from the shaft. . . ." (Figure 2 of the patent includes a drawing of the propeller.)

The Mudrovcich machine, in contrast, features a four-bladed propeller with metal blades.

Errol

Dear oh dear, Errol, do you feel like you are going around in circles regarding this Pearse stuff?

[nuuumannn]

For the record, the Wright's "catapult" as mentioned by Brucie was called by the Wrights their "assisted take off device" and was not used in December 1903 for their first powered flight attempts. It was conceived for when they began flying at Huffman Pairie outside Dayton Ohio with their 1904 Flyer, and it enabled them to take off in short distances while offering a moveable platform that could be put into any wind direction. In 1909 when Wilbur demonstrated in France, someone stated he was cheating by using a catapult. To prove a point, he had the aircraft removed from the rail and placed on the ground, from where, without a word in response he started the aircraft and took off successfully without the use of the device.

[nuuumannn]

For a bit of context regarding the "Flight before the Wrights" controversy, take a look here for information on Scottish aviator Preston Watson, who, if any of this Pearse flying in 1903 stuff is to be believed, the Scots made a similar claim for this guy, despite it too being fiction.

warbirdswalkaround.wixsite.com/rockingwings/powered-flight-before-the-wrights-c

Then, there are claims by the Brazilians that the Wrights did not successfully fly until 1905 and that Alberto Santos Dumont was the first to make a successful powered flight that year, and there is the perennial US favourite, or should it be favorite, Gustav Whitehead, who, according to his supporters successfully flew in 1902. What about Clement Ader, who in 1909, disgusted with the publicity the Wrights were receiving from Wilbur's demonstration flights in France, made the bold claim that he had successfully flown his Avion III in 1897? Going further back, the Russians claim Aleksander Mozhaisski flew a powered aircraft at the end of the 19th Century, too.

so the question has to be posed, which flight before the Wrights claim do you support/believe the most? Let the sludge flow...

Europe 204

[Antonio]

Icarus 

[brucie]

Aug 8, 2024 16:45:17 GMT 12 errolmartyn said:

Aug 8, 2024 6:23:55 GMT 12 brucie said:

At what date then Errol, did he produce the 2 cylinder engine ? Or do you believe that did not exist.

Your evidence for Pearse beginning his work on an aeroplane motor prior to 1904 is?

Errol

[brucie]

This is going around in circles,
The cylinder recovered from the tip ?
When was that produced ? Post 1909 ?