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Post by pampa14 on Jun 16, 2014 21:17:44 GMT 12
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Post by nuuumannn on Jun 19, 2014 4:02:56 GMT 12
Terrific collection of images, although not all of these actually made it to the UK post war or at all. There are a number of familiar aircraft in among that selection and looking through my records I can identify a few of them; some I even have a tenuous connection with!
Second and 23rd image from the top shows Ta 152H-1 on display during the German Aircraft Exhibition at Farnborough in October/November 1945; note the Fw 190A behind it and the nose of the Ju 188 behind its tail in the first image. The Ta 152 was given the Air Ministry number Air Min 11, visible on the right hand side and was eventually scrapped.
Fourth and 20th from the top is Bf 109E-3 DG200 in flight without its canopy. This was removed because the test pilot was so tall he couldn't fit in! It was eventually misplaced. It was at the time this picture was taken part of No.1426 Enemy Aircraft Flight and was forced landed at Manston in November 1940. It survives to this day at the RAF Museum and was fitted with the canopy from a Bf 109G for a number of years, which prompted enthusiasts to write disgruntled letters to the museum about it!
Fifth, 35th and 44th from the top is Bf 109E-3 AE479 of the Air Fighting Development Unit; it has a New Zealand connection in that Arthur Clouston flew it whilst at Farnborough. It was written off in an accident in the USA in 1942.
Sixth down shows Me 262A-2a, which was captured by 616 Sqn equipped with Gloster Meteors at the time. It was assigned the number Air Min 51 and survives today on display at the RAF Museum, after display at St Athan and then Cosford for many years.
Eighth and 16th down is Me 262A-2a Yellow 17, which was also captured at Schleswig and flown by 616 Sqn personnel. It went to the UK and became Air Min 52 before going to Canada, where after sale to a private individual it was scrapped by him! Note the Fw 190 captured by 182 Sqn and wearing the code XM behind it.
10th and 33rd down is Ju 88A-1 AX919, which forced landed near Bexhill during the Battle of Britain. It was eventually scrapped and used as a source of spares for other captured Ju 88s.
12th down is a Bf 109G captured in Italy by 318 Sqn personnel and decorated with its squadron code LW and the Polish checker board marking on the nose.
17th and 28th down is an He 111H captured in Egypt by 260 Sqn and adorned with its codes HS-?.
The Bf 109F with the bomb painted on it forced landed at Beachy Head in late 1942 and was given the serial NN644. It was eventually scrapped. The bomb marking was from JG 26.
22nd and 25th down is Fw 190A-3 MP499 wearing yellow prototype P in a circle marking. This aircraft was a significant acquisition as it was the machine accidentally landed at RAF Pembry, South Wales by Oblt Arnim Faber and was the first intact Fw 190 captured by the Allies. The JG 2 Cockerel's Head emblem can be seen on its nose cowl. The aircraft was scrapped post war, but bits survivie, including its windscreen armour plate and instrument panel at the Shoreham Aviation Museum.
27th down is a special transport variant of the Fw 200 Condor; this particular one was Heinrich Himmler's and later Karl Donitz' once he became Fuhrer after Hitler's death. The aircraft was assigned Air Min 54and was sadly scrapped - with such distinguished personal connections to it, it would have made an intriguing subject for preservation.
30th down is Ju 88G-1 night fighter TP190, in which the pilot got lost and landed by accident at RAF Woodbridge.
36th down is Bf 110G-4/R-3 Air Min 30 and is shown on display during the Enemy Aircraft Exhibition at Farnborough. This picture is often captioned as being othe RAF Museum's surviving example, but that was AM 34, not this aircraft, which was scrapped. It does have an interesting past in that it is one of a couple of Bf 110s that arrived in the UK that were thought to have been flown by the highest scoring German night fighter pilot Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer.
39th down and the last image is Me 163B-1a VF421, which was the only Komet that was flown in the UK post war. Taken aloft under tow by a Spitfire, it was flown by test pilot Eric Winkle Brown and in his memoirs Wings on my Sleeve he claims that he flew the aircraft under power, which in previous accounts, including his recollection Wings of the Luftwaffe, he said he flew it onlt as a glider. Most other accounts of Komets in the UK post war state that none were flown under power, but Brown certainly stands by the claim tha he did fly it under rocket propulsion.
40th down is a retouched image of Bf 109G-2 wearing the CV-V codes of Australian No 3 Sqn, personnel of which captured the aircraft intact in Egypt, where it was flown by Sqn Ldr Bobby Gibbes, who is possibly flying it in this picture. The aircraft is better known to aviation enthusiasts the world over as Black 6 and enjoyed a number of years doing flying displays around the UK in the 1990s before it was tipped onto its back on landing at Duxford. An Air Historic Branch airframe, it is now on display at Hendon.
43rd down is Ju 88R-1 night fighter PJ876, in which its crew defected to the UK by prior arrangement, landing at Dyce (Aberdeen) in 1943. It survives at the RAF Museum.
Third from the bottom is Ju 88A-6 HM509, which landed by accident at RAF Chivenor in 1941. It was eventually scrapped.
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Post by flyjoe180 on Jun 20, 2014 11:00:11 GMT 12
Nice post Pampa, thanks. There was a documentary aired in the UK a few weeks ago about Eric Brown, who talked about testing some of these German machines. Very interesting man, you can see various clips on Youtube of his recollections and experiences. I think it was a BBC production but as yet am unable to source it online.
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Post by beagle on Jun 20, 2014 12:15:44 GMT 12
Holy cow, I knew we had some aircraft that were taken fully and flown home to England etc but the variety shown there was quite a shock.
Looking back, it was 6 years of hell and during that time, things like this were bound to happen.
Just wondering how many of our aircraft ended up in their markings.
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Post by baz62 on Jun 20, 2014 12:47:30 GMT 12
Quite a few beags. Including Spitfires, Hurricane, Blenheim, Mustangs, at least one Typhoon, Stirling(!),Wellington, B17, B24,P47, P40, P38 to name just a few types. Don't think the Germans got their mits on a Lancaster or a Halifax?
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Post by beagle on Jun 20, 2014 12:49:20 GMT 12
you got the day off slacko
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 20, 2014 13:11:12 GMT 12
They even had a Corsair, Baz.
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Post by nuuumannn on Jun 20, 2014 14:42:52 GMT 12
Yep, the Germans had a flyable Lancaster, Stirling, Typhoon etc, almost all front line Allied types were evaluated by the personnel at the test center at Rechlin. There is a good book by a former Luftwaffe test pilot Hans Werner Lerche called Luftwaffe Test Pilot, Flying Captured Allied Aircraft of World War two. Worth getting your mits on.
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Post by baz62 on Jun 20, 2014 15:36:51 GMT 12
Wow a Lancaster and a Corsair? I presumed the Corsair was with the Japanese but the Germans got it (Google is my friend!)FAA F4U-1A landed intact in Norway. Apparently they asked the pilot how to fold the wings so they could transport it. Wonder if they got the two finger salute as a reply? I see they also had a Piper Cub! In this link: Click THISthere is footage and a still shot of a Lancaster being strafed by Mustangs while parked on the ground. It had landed (or crash landed) that day so wouldn't be the one (there only appears to be one or possibly two Lancasters captured). It seems one was flown by the Germans as test pilot Hans-Werner Lerche mentioned it in his book. No photos seem to exist sadly. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 20, 2014 17:42:20 GMT 12
No the Corsairs were used against the Germans Baz. The Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm flew them don't forget.
Several of the FAA Corsair pilots I interviewed were involved in attacking the Tirpitz. And one chap said his Corsair squadron which he was XO of was put ashore in Egypt for a while when their carrier was being repaired in Alexandria. People don't seem to realise the Corsair was flying in Europe and North Africa!
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Post by raymond on Jun 20, 2014 18:15:17 GMT 12
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Post by nuuumannn on Jun 20, 2014 20:04:31 GMT 12
I don't have it to hand right at this moment, but there is somewhere a catalog of the German types present at the Enemy Aircraft exhibition at Farnborough in October/November 1945, some of which flew to demonstrate their capabilities. Would have been a fascinating thing to see. The following is a list of ones that I can remember off the top of my head in alphabetical order:
Ar 232, Ar 234, Bf 109 - several examples, Bf 110 day and night fighters, BV 155, Do 335, Fi 103 manned and unmanned, Fi 156, Fw 190 different variants, Fw 200, He 111, He 162, He 177, He 219, Hs 128, Ju 52/3m, Ju 87, Ju 88 bomber and night fighters, Ju 188, Ju 290, Ju 352, Me 163, Me 262, Me 410, Ta 152, a couple of Mistel combinations... From what I can remember from my notes, the following did flying displays, Ar 232, Ar 234, Do 335, Fi 156, He 162, Me 262 to name a few. There were a number of British types for comparison, such as the Tempest, Firefly, late mark Spitfires, Beaufighter, Mosquito, Firebrand etc.
Of considerable scientific interest to the Allies were examples of German night fighters because of their radar fit, so during the war it was fortunate that the odd German Nachtjagd pilots got lost and landed on the other side of the Channel, something that happened surprisingly often.
On 12th and 13 June 1944 all the LW E-Stellen (Test Centers)displayed the latest German equipment, such as He 177B-5, Ju 88S-3, Ta 154, He 219, Fw 190, Ar 232B, Do 335, Ar 234, Me 262 and Me 163, as well as the latest beute (captured) Allied aircraft. Listed in a book I have is the following; Fortress, Liberator, Lightning, Mustang, Spitfire, Mosquito and Typhoon, but no mention of a Lancaster, but Lerche's Flugbuch certainly confirms he flew one there beforehand, so it can be assumed (with some hesitation) that it was there.
Apparently from what I've seen on other forums is that images of Lancasters in German markings are quite elusive and the exact identities have a few people stumped. It's possible that the aircraft Lerche was flying was Lancaster III ND396 BQ-D of 550 Sqn that was hit by Flak on 30 January 1944 and came down near Berlin, but there is no certainty behind this. It is believed that the one Lerche flew was one of the first intact beute Lancasters overhauled to flying condition.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 21, 2014 0:06:18 GMT 12
My mate Kerry has a Japanese book that shows every single type of aircraft used by Japan in WWII. It's astounding how many US and British types they had in large numbers, and many of them they mass produced under licence. They even had Tiger Moths and Fox Moths, etc. A fascinating book, they must have had at least 500 different types in their Armed Forces.
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Post by baz62 on Jun 21, 2014 10:47:10 GMT 12
No the Corsairs were used against the Germans Baz. The Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm flew them don't forget. Yes I know that's why I put FAA in the description. I was pointing out my surprise that considering the greater numbers of Corsairs in the Pacific theatre compared with the FAA ones used against the Germans that they manged to get one at all. Doesn't look like it manged to make it to Ger,many though nor do there seem to be any photos. Wouldn't that make a model stand out, a Corsair in German markings!! |
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