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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 22, 2015 12:13:01 GMT 12
What were all the crew positions and roles in a standard postwar RNZAF Sunderland MR.5 on patrol or operational duties?
Two pilots (Captain and Second pilot)?
One Navigator?
One Wireless Operator?
One Flight Engineer?
Were there Air Gunners onboard?
Any other roles like Radar Op, or Bomb Aimer?
And were these crew numbers and roles the same as had been in the wartime Sunderlands? Or had postwar activities adapted the crew a bit?
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Post by isc on Feb 22, 2015 21:03:12 GMT 12
I'v got the list of war time (RAF) crew numbers. Flight deck two pilots, navigator, wireless operator, flight engineer. Bomb aimer. Nose, mid upper, tail gunners. Radar operator. Total 10, for Mks III, and V. isc
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furd
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 71
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Post by furd on Feb 23, 2015 7:13:51 GMT 12
What were all the crew positions and roles in a standard postwar RNZAF Sunderland MR.5 on patrol or operational duties? Two pilots (Captain and Second pilot)? One Navigator? One Wireless Operator? One Flight Engineer? Were there Air Gunners onboard? Any other roles like Radar Op, or Bomb Aimer? And were these crew numbers and roles the same as had been in the wartime Sunderlands? Or had postwar activities adapted the crew a bit? Standard crew for 5 Sqn Sunderland patrols etc were 2 Pilots, 1 Navigator, 2 Flight Engineers and 3 Wireless Operators. From my logbook on the last Sunderland flight in RNZAF service. No Air Gunners, not an aircrew trade after WW2. Wireless Operators also occupied the Radar Operators position. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Feb 23, 2015 10:25:55 GMT 12
Thanks ISC and Furd, that is conclusive.
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Post by davidd on Mar 5, 2015 11:54:54 GMT 12
Just happened to be browsing through some unit histories at Wigram recently, and took a few photcopies of RNZAF Sunderland crew lists from the late 1950s/early 1960s. In January 1958, for instance, MOCU (Hobsonville) officially formed its flying staff into three (nominal) crews, under captains S/L Tompkins, F/L Simpson, and F/L McGrath. Crews numbered eight or nine bods each (including captain) - unfortunately the lists only included ranks and surnames - no crew positions.
However from November 1960, 5 Squadron at Lauthala Bay were including monthly crew lists, and sometimes the unit establishments, and featured rank, names and initials, plus crew positions or appointments. Originally there were six complete crews, numbered A1 to A6, each crew normally one captain (pilot), two other pilots, two Navs, three signallers, and two engineers (total of 10 men), although some crews only had one captain and one other pilot, and not all crews had luxury of two navigators; similar observation applied to the signallers - sometimes only two per crew. By July 1963 the number of permanent crews had been reduced by one, so now numbered as A1 - 5.
The establishment sometimes noted that all the Signaller appointments in crews were "to be gunner trained" which tends to back up Furd's memories. I think in one of the reorganisations and reviews of trades in the 1950s it was decided that there was to be no separate air gunner trade from a certain point onwards, but the aircraft crews DID include air gunners (disguised as signallers) as somebody had to look after the defence! Air to air firing practice had to be indulged in by these Signaller (gunners) from time to time to keep their hand in, and the Sunderland was the last RNZAF aircraft to include turret-mounted guns. However I think the beam-mounted .50 calibre Brownings (at least I am fairly certain we had those weapons mounted within the side hatches) were probably the most useful guns on board. It also seems that our sixteen Mark 5s were delivered with provision for the four (fixed) bow-mounted .303" Brownings, but these were never actually installed, probably because suppression attacks on surfaced submarines were not considered an intelligent employment of such a large and slow aircaft as a Sunderland (from hard-earned WW2 experience ). I don't know how frequently the nose turret featured in gunnery practice.
David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 6, 2015 17:17:41 GMT 12
Thanks David. Very interesting stuff.
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Post by isc on Mar 6, 2015 20:47:16 GMT 12
No rank or number, but one of the crew members on one of the ferry flights from UK lives(I think he's still here)in Darfield, Hammersley H.C.B. Address in phone book. isc
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Post by alanw on Mar 6, 2015 22:31:59 GMT 12
Two positions that would have required a crewman at some point would have been the Sonobuoy station located on Starboard side of ward room, possibly one of the wireless crew?  This would have been important, especially when the RNZAF won the Fincastle Trophy in 1964  The other position would could have been a navigator job, was the GPI Table (Ground Position Indicator) directly behind the first pilot.  Which raises a question in my mind, is when the crew was reduced to 5, who took over the mooring duty and placing the mooring beacon on top of the aircraft? You would still need the 1st pilot and flight engineer during the mooring, so did the 2nd pilot, Nav and radio operator take care of these? Regards Alan |
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 7, 2015 10:38:56 GMT 12
No rank or number, but one of the crew members on one of the ferry flights from UK lives(I think he's still here)in Darfield, Hammersley H.C.B. Address in phone book. isc Sadly, Flt Lt NZ422945 Harvey ('Ham') Hammersley died on 19 Dec 2011. Errol |
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Post by isc on Mar 7, 2015 20:02:51 GMT 12
Hi Errol, I seem to remember that now, I think his wife is still there, there house is at the other end of the town, next door to a friend of mine. Do you know which crew position he held? isc
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Post by errolmartyn on Mar 7, 2015 20:20:18 GMT 12
Hi Errol, I seem to remember that now, I think his wife is still there, there house is at the other end of the town, next door to a friend of mine. Do you know which crew position he held? isc This is the closest I can come to an answer . . . From Colin Hanson’s By Such Deeds – Honours and awards in the Royal New Zealand Air Force, 1923 – 1999: HAMMERSLEY, Flight Lieutenant Harvey, (cvsa). NZ422945, NZ48523 & B72543; Born Westport, 22 Aug 1923; RNZAF 7 May 1942 to 2 Nov 1945 & 15 Sep 1948 to 7 Jun 1974, Res. to 7 Jun 1978; Air Signals. Citation Queen’s Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air (QB1972): Not available. During WWII Flt Lt Hammersley served as a WOAG with 195 Sqn RAF (Lancaster). In 1948 he re-enlisted in the RNZAF as a Telegraphist and was seconded for aircrew duties in Feb 1952. In 1966 he was commissioned as a Flt Lt from the rank of Master Signaller, having served mainly with RNZAF transport squadrons. From 1967 to 1969 he was Base Operations/Intelligence Officer at Wigram before returning to a flying appointment with NATS, at Wigram, in 1970. Flt Lt Hammersley at all times displayed a high technical and professional knowledge as an air signaller with a strong sense of duty and loyalty to the RNZAF. In particular he was instrumental in improving the operational capabilities of the navigational equipment fitted to the Devon, so much so that longer range flights over the sea could safely be undertaken permitting a reduction in the number of navigation training flights necessary, and leading to significant financial savings. In recognition of these valuable services he was awarded a Queen’s Commendation in Jun 1972. Errol |
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Post by isc on Mar 8, 2015 0:06:15 GMT 12
Thank you Errol, it's as I suspected, he flew out as wireless operator. I met him probably 15 years ago, and he spoke of the flight, I think they wee held up in Africa with a leak in the hull. The aircraft had been overhauled, they found that, that ment they had a coat of paint, and that was what was holding them together (well not quite that bad, but...) isc
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Post by davidd on Mar 9, 2015 10:20:23 GMT 12
Alan,
I repeat the offending paragraph (admittedly rather cryptic) which has caused you confusion.
"By July 1963 the number of permanent crews had been reduced by one, so now numbered as A1 - 5."
What I was attempting to state was that the number of crews, not crewmen per crew, was reduced from six to five - the official STRENGTH of each crew remained officially at ten, although in practice this could be as few as seven or eight. The official crew strength of course related to an OPERATIONAL crew; any flying other than operational could have substantially less members required, such as MCT (monthly continuation training), transport or VIP flights (including regular civilian passenger flights to the Chathams), airshow or display attendances, etc.
David D
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Post by kb on Mar 12, 2015 18:46:07 GMT 12
Alan, I repeat the offending paragraph (admittedly rather cryptic) which has caused you confusion. "By July 1963 the number of permanent crews had been reduced by one, so now numbered as A1 - 5." What I was attempting to state was that the number of crews, not crewmen per crew, was reduced from six to five - the official STRENGTH of each crew remained officially at ten, although in practice this could be as few as seven or eight. The official crew strength of course related to an OPERATIONAL crew; any flying other than operational could have substantially less members required, such as MCT (monthly continuation training), transport or VIP flights (including regular civilian passenger flights to the Chathams), airshow or display attendances, etc. David D Recently I obtained a photo copy of Fg Off G A Wrathall's brief history of 6 Squadron. I haven't seen the original but this appears to have an additional page where he lists the 6 Squadron crews as at 31st January 1957. Thje list is as follows; Squadron leader J B Spencer C.O. Flight Lieutenant James Nav. Leader Flight Lieutenant Leadley Sigs leader M Eng |
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Post by kb on Mar 12, 2015 19:02:51 GMT 12
My last message got away on me! To finish;
M Eng Sutton Eng. Leader
No 1 Crew
Flight Lieutenant Griffith Captain
Flight Lieutenant Mullooly 2nd Pilot
Flying Officer Bennett 1st Nav
Flight Lieutenant Park 1st Nac
Flight Lieutenant Lawson 2nd Nav
Flight Lieutenant Brizzell 1st Sig.
Flight Lieutenant Embling 2nd Sig.
Flight Lieutenant Gray 3rd Sig.
M/Sig Cummings 4th Sig.
F/S Millett Engineer
No 2 Crew
Flight Lieutenant Moffitt Captain
Flying Officer Laslett 2nd Pilot
Flight Lieutenant Thom 1st Nav.
Flying Officer Atkins 2nd Nav.
Flight Lieutenant McMurray 3rd Nav.
Flight Lieutenant Drake 1st Sig.
Flight Lieutenant Whittle 2nd Sig.
M/Sig Harrison 3rd Sig
M/Sig White 4th Sig
M/Sig Strother Engineer
Additional Aircrew
Pilot Officer Purdie Nav.
Pilot Welch Nav.
Flight Lieutenant Whelan Pilot
So far as armament is concerned I lived at Beach Haven as a kid and always shot down the wharf when I heard the engines start and I only remember seeing turret guns on Catalinas. In 1956 or 57 I crewed on a Sunderland as a school ATC member and there weren't any guns aboard that I remember.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 12, 2015 23:31:21 GMT 12
Thanks for these details Keith. I note in No. 1 Crew is Cambridge airman Rex Embling. Also I highly suspect that the 2nd pilot would have been Pat Mullooly, who flew Hudsons and from memory C-47's in WWII. And in the No. 2 Crew I see my later friend Art Strother, one of the No. 5 Squadron originals in the Short Singapore days.
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Post by alanw on Mar 13, 2015 19:34:00 GMT 12
Alan, I repeat the offending paragraph (admittedly rather cryptic) which has caused you confusion. "By July 1963 the number of permanent crews had been reduced by one, so now numbered as A1 - 5." What I was attempting to state was that the number of crews, not crewmen per crew, was reduced from six to five - the official STRENGTH of each crew remained officially at ten, although in practice this could be as few as seven or eight. The official crew strength of course related to an OPERATIONAL crew; any flying other than operational could have substantially less members required, such as MCT (monthly continuation training), transport or VIP flights (including regular civilian passenger flights to the Chathams), airshow or display attendances, etc. David D HI David D, Many thnks for the clarificaction about the number of crews vs number of crew, make much more sense now. -apologies for the confusion from me Thanks/regards Alan |
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Post by rone on Apr 17, 2015 10:46:04 GMT 12
I see a reference by kb to Flying Officer G A Wrathall and 6 Sqdn. He was a 3 Sqdn. ATC member with me around 1953
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Post by baronbeeza on Apr 17, 2015 12:36:10 GMT 12
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Post by emron on May 17, 2015 18:35:02 GMT 12
I took a few minutes to check out the gun positions on NZ4115. There's no sign at all of the bow gun ports either outside or inside. If they were ever installed in the factory then they were deleted in subsequent conversion or refit. I know many of the others of the fleet retained some of this feature until the end, including NZ4111 in the Chathams, but I imagine they were usually covered over. The only remnant in NZ4115 is the stowage rack for 4 guns on the wardroom bulkhead. Both the front and rear turrets have been de-milled. The gun mount structure has been sawn away and the gun slots sealed. Any of the turrets I've seen from the later one's scrapped also had undergone that treatment so I assume that they were never armed and only occupied for observer duties. For the beam (waist) gun positions, both hatches are free to open, the gun mounts are complete and in place as are the ammo boxes above. So it would be an easy insatallation with the suitable trunnion and ammo chute provided, if gunnery training was ever undertaken. I'm not sure what purpose these .50 guns would otherwise serve in peacetime so i doubt if they were routinely carried. Other individual aircraft may have been equipped differently and I don't have any first hand experience of what really occurred, so corrections are welcome.
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