learner
Leading Aircraftman
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Post by learner on May 9, 2015 3:00:19 GMT 12
First time post so please be understanding with me!
I am trying to shed light on a family member working from conversations with those aged in their nineties. The memories are now dwindling with each month that passes.
George left the UK in circa 1912 and arrived in New Zealand. Hence I assume that he would have been a UK Citizen, but to arrive in New Zealand did this make him a NZ Citizen? (Did Passports exist then? at the back of my mind I recall that they probably did not)
George joined Robert Laidlaw and worked under his instructions. WW1 service occurred but a photo I saw some years ago had Red Cross armbands on the uniform. Would George have been conscripted? Did George need to be a NZ Citizen to be subject to conscription? It might be that George volunteered for the Army, but the armbands make me wonder if he was a pacifist or Conscientious Objector. If so, volunteering to join the Army is an unlikely scenario.
Did the Robert Laidlaw staff all join one Army Regiment?
There was no combat service. I am told that the War Service was spent painting, decorating and maintaining the racecourse, probably at Wellington. The racecourse had become a barracks. However, another family member has questionned Wellington and thinks this was elsewhere, possibly Napier.
There was route marching and training but there was no overseas service that the family is aware of.
Even if George had remained a UK Citizen did service in the NZ Army entitle him to Naturalization, as happened with the US Army? If so, one can assume that George was a NZ Citizen from 1918 onwards, or possibly a dual nationality Citizen of the UK and of NZ.
Can any of the wise folk on this Forum offer any suggestions to my questions please? Any observations, or anything that may shed light on this, would be most welcomed.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 9, 2015 14:15:05 GMT 12
[font face="arial"George left the UK in circa 1912 and arrived in New Zealand. Hence I assume that he would have been a UK Citizen, but to arrive in New Zealand did this make him a NZ Citizen? (Did Passports exist then? at the back of my mind I recall that they probably did not) Welcome to the forum. Prior to 1949 there was no such thing as New Zealand Citizenship. All those born in New Zealand of Nationalised here were British Citizens. So George would have been British, like everyone else. Conscription in New Zealand did not start till 1916, but even when it was in place a big proportion of those joining up were still volunteers. So he quite possibly volunteered. Also not all those wearing the Red Cross were pacifists or CO's. In fact I'd wager they were a small percentage of the men with the Red Cross armband. Most would have been men who joined the Army and then found themselves simply posted into a medical unit, such as a Field Ambulance unit, Field Hospital, Hospital Ship, etc. Most had very little medical training, and little prior interest in medical things. I have met soldiers who served in WWII who'd violunteered to fight and found themselves in medical units, in just the same way. I'm afraid I have no idea who Robert Laidlaw was so I cannot answer that. In both World Wars racecourses, parks, showgrounds and other public spaces became training grounds for troops, and often the troops moved around, so he may well have been posted to both cities. He was possibly involved with the training system for other soldiers if he spent the whole war in NZ. He did not need Naturalisation as he was British, like all other NZ-born kiwis. He'd only need to have been naturalised had he been from a country outside of the Empire. I hope this helps. By the way if you put his full name into the Archives New Zealand "Archway" site it will bring up his service records from WWI, and that will tell you dates, places posted to, and other info. www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ |
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learner
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 6
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Post by learner on May 12, 2015 2:18:53 GMT 12
Hello Dave and thank you for the detailed reply. I was not aware of the Archway site. My search is there and shows that George had an injury in October 1915 and was deemed unfit for service. Hence there must have been a recruitment drive for this to come to light?
The puzzle is that you say Conscription started in 1916, yet George had a foot injury. In October 1915 he must have been called before the military. My guess is that he would not have gone forward voluntarily, knowing his foot injury deemed him unfit?
There are no other papers lodged until October 1917 when he is declared A Classification - his injury has healed but there is a reference to scarring. Hence there were regular round ups for Conscription? Plus the military were trying again with those deemed unfit earlier in the war?
Another puzzle is that George went into the NZMC - not an ideal role for a painter! I take your point regarding this but also wonder if this was related to religion? George states his religion as Bretheren, and I think these followers did not want to take life, but would save life?
Having been posted to the NZMC George was at the Awapuni Racecourse. Hence in theory he was nursing, or assisting the health of the troops. In reality his painting skills were used to maintain the Racecourse, and perhaps others since the family have mentioned a couple?
George is recorded as IETAILS Company of NZMC. Are you able to shed light on this terminology please? Another form mentions the term ARO as the Authority For Entry on a form. Again are you able to shed light on this term please?
Demob occurred in 1919 and George did return to England within the next year or so. Are there Census returns in NZ or street directories for this era to assist with tracing peopl? Indeed, bearing in mind your comment about Kiwis being UK Citizens, were there any records kept of UK Citizens in and out of NZ? Or was this just like getting on a train in London and then getting off in Birmingham - no records would be kept for it was all the same "country"?
Your reference to 1949 is interesting because George had a bond with NZ and was back at this time for a nine month "holiday". I think the ship sailed at Christmas 1949. This seems a strange concept for that time, and it seems a bit spontaneous - his daughter was taken out of school for this and missed all her exams. Might they have got NZ Citizenship in conjunction with this "holiday"?
Would there have been any War Pension payable because of George's WW1 service?
A lot of questions from me! But then my user name is learner!
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 12, 2015 9:27:05 GMT 12
Hello Dave and thank you for the detailed reply. I was not aware of the Archway site. My search is there and shows that George had an injury in October 1915 and was deemed unfit for service. Hence there must have been a recruitment drive for this to come to light? There was encouragement for men to enlist and various drives to aid this right from the beginning, bu the joining up was all voluntary from the outset of war till 1916 when the Act of Parliament brought in conscription - necessary as people were realising by then it wasn't the big rosey adventure they'd been told, and the long casualty lists and stories being told by those coming home wounded caused a huge slowdown in volunteers. Yes he would have volunteered, and he would have (like all others who hoped to join) had to undergo a medical exam to ensure fitness and no injuries or disease that would affect his service. Many men were that keen to go, they would hide injuries or put their age up/down, etc, to meet the criteria. Often it was because all their mates were joining too and they didn't want to miss out or be seen to be a coward. Or they just got caught up in the hysteria or hoopla of the recruiting drives. In George's case it seems he failed the medical, which was not uncommon, and they'd say come back in x-amount of time and we'll see you again. Later in the war of course the medical and fitness criteria was made less stringent as they desperately needed men as reinforcements. It could be either, he may have simply gone for another medical voluntarily when his wound had healed, or he may well have been drawn in the conscription ballot. Does his record mention a ballot number? Although I think even the ballot number, when drawn meaning you were called for service in the latest training intake, may well have also applied to those who'd volunteered and were waiting call up as well as the unwilling conscripts. Yes i think you're right there that Bretheren was one of the religions considered by the Government as having a legitimate claim to Pascifism and they could be excused service if drafted in the ballot, so the fact he still joined means he was a keen volunteer and not under any duress. Anyone claiming such a status usually had to go through a hearing with a Magistrate and I a panel of J.P's or similar to prove their belonging to the religion they claimed to be part of, and explaining their reason why they would not fight. Some who were of an organised religion as well as those in reserved occupations which they could not leave as there was no-one skilled to replace them would be excused service, others who appealed to this panel on their own personal moral grounds had to prove their feelings and often ended up labelled Conscientious Objectors and could be imprisoned (ironically many of the NZ WWII War Cabinet had been imprisoned as C.O.'s in WWI, including Prime Minister Peter Fraser!). This makes sense, keeping barracks and other buildings freshly painted is actually a military ideal that all comes under maintaining health and hygiene I believe. And if he was skilled in painting already, why not utilise that. Sorry, I have no idea. You may have to ask the Army Museum that one. I'm not certain on this either but possibly Army Registry Office? Or Auckland Registry Office? There are no NZ Census details, these were never kept till our most recent Census when they finally decided to start. There will be British Census details if you want to look into them for when he was in the UK. NZ did keep the Electoral Rolls and they can be searched, most large libraries in NZ have copies. As for movements between the countries you can check shipping records for civil ships, an easy way for this is all the old newspapers recorded passenger lists of anyone arriving or departing on ships at whichever port around the country, so search his name on Papers Past. paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ I have no idea, sorry. I also have no idea of whether existing people were required to register for NZ Citizenship or whether it was just births from then on. Someone here will know. If there was a register, perhaps that list if still around and you can search it. Perhaps contact some genealogists to discover more there, or the Birth, Death and Marriage office. I don't think WWI soldiers got a war pension, that is why the RSA was set up, to administer the welfare of ex-soldiers who received nothing for their service and came home wounded, shell shocked and often jobless. Although don't quote me, maybe they kicked in later when Labour set up the Welfare State? No worries. If you give us George's full name it may help me find more that you might not find. |
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learner
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 6
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Post by learner on May 17, 2015 19:17:12 GMT 12
Thank you Dave for all this information.
I am pondering on the Ballot system. How did the Government know who was where in order to Ballot them and then what was the Ballot mechanism? There must have been a means of tracking people but some people also moved around a lot, as in the case of George.
George was with a group of friends, one I now realise was his employer. This gent volunteered in 1916 but his subsequent Attestattion refers to him being refused service - this being against the question asking if he was deemed unfit. This prompts the question were some occupations, or circumstances such that the Authorities would refuse volunteers? This gent is listed as a builder, and he did employ people. Perhaps he was building for the military, or his volunteering would cause the business to collapse? Clearly he was not concerned by this, for he had volunteered. However, the term refused might be incorrect - perhaps he was just unfit? But it is meant to be a straight yes-no answer, so writing refused suggests something else.
Moving on, this gent was Balloted in 1918 and his occupation is now farmer, but his Ballot with date stamps only for 1919 (why?) has him as a builder. I am wondering if he changed his occupation in order to get into the Army?
Another of George's colleagues was Bretheren but this Attestation is complete except the bottom section, where written in red across it says he refuses to recognise the Attestation. He has expressed a preference to volunteer for the 27th, and within a few weeks he is in E. Coy 27th. This is a puzzle for George and others had a gap of 4-6 months to receive training, equipment, accomodation etc. Did the Army force this man into a rapid Army service? Plus George would have been aware of this - his Attestation came later. He did not object and he had a peaceful war in NZ. The refuser was posted to France. Perhaps luck of the draw, or perhaps it was the Army excercising revenge?
This gent has a copy of his Will on the archives. This is dated before going into France. Was this policy because one was going into a war zone?
Again a lot of questions from me. Your link to the Archway site has certainly got me pondering. Any thoughts from you would be much appreciated. Many thanks.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 17, 2015 21:34:42 GMT 12
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learner
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 6
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Post by learner on May 22, 2015 21:41:41 GMT 12
Thanks Dave for all the links and tips. It is much appreciated.
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Post by angelsonefive on May 23, 2015 11:44:19 GMT 12
Hi learner,
"This gent has a copy of his Will on the archives. This is dated before going into France. Was this policy because one was going into a war zone?"
Yes. I recall that before going to Malaysia in the Army in the early 60's being required to make a Will. The same would have been required in earlier times, too, in my opinion.
Regarding the guy who refused attestation, or swearing in. I do not know about the Bretheren ( spelling ? ) referred to or if there is any connection with today's Exclusive Brethren, but I suspect he had a problem with that part of the oath of attestation that pledged loyalty to the " King and his heirs and successors " but he nevertheless volunteered for the " 27th", ( presumably the 27th Reinforcements ), so I imagine there was an alternative oath in which one could simply pledge " to obey lawful orders ", or some-such. As for the authorities taking revenge by sending him to the Western Front, why should they ? It was obviously what the man wanted. The Reinforcement units were intended to replace casualties and he must have known that.
Thanks for raising a very interesting topic.
a15
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learner
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 6
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Post by learner on May 24, 2015 22:57:20 GMT 12
Hello angelsonefive
You are spot on with my spelling. This was taken from one of the NZ Army papers so I wondered if this was a NZ term.
The Attestation has been signed, witnessed and the Oath taken. The mystery is the Attesting Officer has written that the recruit has refused to be Attested. Hence the bottom section "Certificate of Attesting Officer" has not been signed and dated.
It appears that the recruit did not Appeal - or perhaps was not allowed to do so? The recruit was rapidly put in the Army. Five months later there was a transfer to NZMC. So perhaps an Appeal was being applied for and processed during the service in the Army?
This contrasts with George later in the war when there would have been a more urgent need for manpower(?) He had followed the system and Appealed as a Brethren. He was posted to NZMC after a delay of around five months. During this time he remained a civilian and the authorities allowed him to Appeal. They appear to have been understanding of his situation.
The other mystery is George volunteered some while before this and it is thought he was put into the Ambulance Service. However there are no military records of this - just a newspaper reference (thanks Dave for all the links!) But his Attestation says he was declared unfit for service. There is a typo with the newspaper but I think this is the same person. So what happened here and which document tells the true story? Surely there should be military records if he was discharged then deemed fit for a new application a few years later?
Thank you for your interest in my post. As you may have gathered I am thousands of miles from NZ and not up to speed on protocols and archives in your glorious country!
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Post by angelsonefive on May 26, 2015 8:08:20 GMT 12
Hi learner,
" The Attestation has been signed, witnessed and the Oath taken. The mystery is the Attesting Officer has written that the recruit has refused to be Attested. Hence the bottom section "Certificate of Attesting Officer" has not been signed and dated.
It appears that the recruit did not Appeal - or perhaps was not allowed to do so? The recruit was rapidly put in the Army."
It all looks like George's colleague was either a volunteer or had been called up by conscription ( which he appears to have accepted ) and was duly inducted into the Army. So no appeal in his case.
It was a quick process in those days, I guess, one would report to a reception centre, there would be some filling-in of forms, a medical examination ( probably cursory by today's standards ), then the attestation ceremony after which one would be given a train ticket to the nearest army camp.
As far as the Certificate of Attestation not being signed by the officer despite the Oath being taken, signed, and witnessed, I have no idea. A bureaucratic foul-up possibly ?
Regards,
a15
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learner
Leading Aircraftman
Posts: 6
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Post by learner on Jun 7, 2015 20:36:26 GMT 12
Hi a15
Thank you for this.
There is probably no further area that I can delve into. From the links that I have been kindly given it appears that a Mr Powell was a prominent member of the Brethren community undertaking Appeal Representations for fellow Brethren. Assuming that the references are all to the same person, this would have been from New Plymouth to the east coast.
I sense that George was in contact with this Mr Powell. I wonder if Mr Powell emigrated from the UK to establish, or help establish, a Brethren community. This being a military website it would be unreasonable for me to expect any further information here!
Then again, there may be more wise folks out there who are able to add to this?
Many thanks.
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