Kiwi troops just 40km from ISIS forces - ex-SAS MP

[Dave Homewood]

Kiwi troops just 40km from ISIS forces - ex-SAS MP
UPDATED 15:22
Published: 9:10AM Sunday June 07, 2015 Source: Q+A

Ex-SAS member and New Zealand First MP Ron Mark says New Zealand's non-combat forces sent to Iraq are likely to be drawn into fighting - and the Government knows it.

Defence Minister Gerry Brownlee spoke to Q+A this morning , responding to comments by Mr Mark that Kiwi soldiers have embarked on an impossible mission in Iraq - attempting to train a "cowardly army" to fight ISIS.

The comments come after Iraqi security and military forces fled as ISIS militants took control of the city of Ramadi last month, despite outnumbering the enemy. But Mr Brownlee told Q+A that calling the troops cowards was unfair, and it was wrong to focus on the Ramadi incident.

"In that environment, with all the tension in a war zone, I would not look into the eyes of those young recruits and call them cowards ... they are far from it," Mr Brownlee said.

Mr Brownlee said there would always be wins and losses in any war and the forces at Ramadi were under less-than-optimal leadership.

"I don't think they [the Iraqi forces] feel like cowards and they shouldn't because they are courageous people," he said.

However, Mr Mark reiterated his comments this afternoon, saying Mr Brownlee knows the Government has made a mistake sending Kiwi troops into the area.

"We say it is the Government that is trying to cover up bad decision making in sending a training force of Kiwi troops to Iraq in the first place," he said in a statement.

"He didn't think we should dwell on Ramadi - perhaps he can talk about Fallujah which is reportedly under ISIS control. It is about 40 kilometres from our troops.

"Now our troops may be drawn into the fighting."

Mr Brownlee has just made a secret visit to New Zealand troops in Iraq and says their base at Camp Taji, north of Baghdad, is fairly secure given that it is a war zone.

He told Q+A that an important part of their role is intelligence gathering and information seeking and "they are extremely good at it".

The minister also warned any disaffected people in New Zealand against planning violence or support for the Islamic State.

"We won't tolerate this stuff, we don't want your terrorists in our country ... we're not interested in you using your perverted views of Islamic religion to attract the disaffected around the world into a very violent lifestyle."

tvnz.co.nz/national-news/kiwi-troops-just-40km-isis-forces-ex-sas-mp-6333081?autoStart=true

[baronbeeza]

I am not sure there are any ex-SAS MP's.
Once upon a time we had many politicians that came from a defence background but there seem to be few these days.
I know Ron Mark was in the Army but I can't recall any SAS link.

Are there any other politicians that have served ? I guess by that I am referring to current MP's.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Mark

I suspect Captain Mark was never in the SAS. If that is the case then what do we make of the rest of the article ?
Could it also be just worthless reading.

The MP's get to exaggerate their background on the party websites.
Some of it is fantasy stuff as we saw exposed in the lead-up to the last election.

I remember one of the candidates being referred to as the pilot from ChCh, he (Winston) was referring to the holder of a Student Pilot Licence.
Why start off with the truth when half a story does the job.


nzfirst.org.nz/ron-mark

What does 'selected for service' mean ? If you served wouldn't it read that way ?

The Sinai detachment was reasonably big news for us in 1982 and the rotary guys in particular all lined up for it.



Was there an SAS element to it ? I can't recall but the guys were basically observers.
I guess if this continues someone will be asking the question of our resident defence expert in the house....
I am aware people have claimed Ron was a workshop manager in the NZ Army and then a similar role in the Oman outfit.

[thelensofhistory]

Ron Mark is probably correct to some degree.  Kiwi troops in Iraq may well have to be evacuated in the face of advancing Isis forces. The New Zealand and Australian government's could well face a decision over the timing of the evacuation of troops from Iraq. Balancing out the security of the troops while avoiding being seen as cutting and running from Iraq.     

[baronbeeza]

If Ron Mark is being less than honest about his service background then what kind of mandate does he thinks he has to speak on Defence matters ?
This is not a political matter but either the media or ex-servicemen have got it wrong. Either he is ex SAS or he is not.
If the media are sensationalising, and they are wrong then the article has to be nonsense.
If Ron is ex-SAS and the media are correct in their reporting of it then fine. This SAS element is a reasonably new introduction though.

Ron was called out about it when it was first reported a year or so ago. I can't remember Mr Mark giving a definitive answer and I think that sits uneasy with many ex-servicemen.
There may be many here that would not like to be represented by someone being disingenuous about service matters. I can remember the feelings aired about the wearing of medals not genuinely earned.

Having the SAS in Iraq is obviously a contentious issue and has political overtones. I think that for the safety of our troops, and the people they are protecting, the media should keep away from them. Likewise the politicians could tone it down and leave it to the military or have a quiet, hushed military input.

There is no doubt it is a dangerous assignment for the troops and I would like to think that any spokesman for them is not some 'wannabe'.
This is certainly a delicate situation all round and the decisions need to be made by people at the top of their game.
I am sure we, the public, would accept a little less reporting if it meant the troops were that much safer.

This is a real war and we have to learn from the lessons of Vietnam and The Falklands.
Lives are on the line..

[11SQNLDR]

Never seen him listed as ex-SAS, Wiki mentions his service with the NZ Army, the Sultan of Oman's Armed Forces and the Sultan of Oman's Special Forces.

Still, no difference eh, bit like calling every single-engined aircraft a Cessna


As for the context of his message.... these are professional soldiers, all volunteers carrying our a mission at the bequest of the Iraqi govt. Whilst I certainly hope they remain safe it seems ironic that of all MP's he is drumming up some sort of scare campaign. These guys and the NZDF / ADF are not a bunch of conscripts without the first clue. Our troops in the prior Iraq & Afghanistan campaigns were frequently closer than 40km from the enemy.

Or am I missing something here?

[phil]

from NZ first website:

'In 1982 he was selected for service with the NZSAS, and as one of five New Zealand Army officers was sent to assist in setting up a new peace keeping mission in Israel and Egypt. He completed two back to back tours and was repatriated in 1983.

Ron left the NZ Army in 1985 as a Captain and spent five years soldiering in the Sultanate of Oman. There he served in the Sultan of Oman’s Land Forces and the Sultan’s Special Force in the Dhofar. He retired as a Major in 1990.'

[baronbeeza]

I, for one, would just like to get some accuracy in the reporting to start with.
With a headline like that I don't bother to even read any further. I still have not read the article.
I saw some glimpse of Gerry Brownlee on the news so I know he has been with the troops. I now mute the TV News and only turn the sound on when there is something interesting looking. Last night the 'news' was a bird being caught and released ! I couldn't tell you what was on this evening although I did listen to some of the Jerry Collins reports.

I agree with the Cessna comment as we learn to live with that one. If Ron wants to be Defence spokesman for the opposition that is fine. He is ex-military and naturally has an interest. Many here fall into that category as well though.
If the media then exaggerate my background, especially in headlines then I would be putting them right. I would also be asking for a printed correction to ensure no harm was done to my reputation and standing etc.
Ron Mark had his profile displayed on the party website. Shortly after the media started reporting the ex-SAS aspect possibly based on their interpretation of that page.
It was queried by ex-Army types almost immediately and yet here we are almost a year later and still no answer. Indeed we are now getting headlines and opinion being expressed as expert opinion.
If I could trust an officer that had served in the MFO and then the Omani Army then fine, I would respect that experience even though it may have been several decades ago.
The thing is though I don't trust the article. I believe something is not right with it and it just smells a little dodgy.

[baronbeeza]

Jun 7, 2015 21:36:42 GMT 12 phil said:

from NZ first website:

'In 1982 he was selected for service with the NZSAS, and as one of five New Zealand Army officers was sent to assist in setting up a new peace keeping mission in Israel and Egypt. He completed two back to back tours and was repatriated in 1983.

Ron left the NZ Army in 1985 as a Captain .......'

Thanks Phil, it was a link I posted and naturally attracted attention at the time, not as much as the Harvard one and a few other's at the time mind you.

I know we are cutting it fine here but there have been murmurings for a few months now.
nominister.blogspot.co.nz/2015/04/the-hypocrisy-of-andrew-little-ron-mark.html

I think many here have a military background with a few still serving.
The Wikipedia bio does not mention SAS.
What does 'selected for service' mean ?
Can you get selected, complete the training, then go on to do two tours all within the space of two years or less ? Did he start training and get chopped ? Did he complete the training ?

Political party websites would be the worst place for weasel words and stretched truth. Wikipedia is not far behind it but Ron's is mild in comparison to some.

Ron was in the Army, fine. He has been there, done that. Good.
Now the SAS bit.
Either he was, ok that is good. A brave and fit man no doubt. Not a whole lot better or informed than the above though.
Or...
He was never in the SAS.
A whole lot different as far as trust and character go.


Ron Mark is aware that the use of SAS in conjunction with his name has people asking questions.
Is the media right with the headline or is it wrong ?

I would be interested in an answer, indeed I would find that more newsworthy than whatever else is written in the article.

[beagle]

Now where are those Skyhawks to help out the boys

[thelensofhistory]

Jun 7, 2015 22:02:48 GMT 12 beagle said:

Now where are those Skyhawks to help out the boys

I was just thinking that F-16's would have been good as well. 

[isc]

Ron Mark: graduated 1971 as Solier Mechanic. 1978 Officer Cadet, graduated 2nd Lieutenant. 1982 SAS, assisted (4 others)setting up peace keeping Israel & Egypt, 2 tours. Left army 1985, the 5yrs in the Sultentate of Omanarmed forces, and special forces, got a couple of gongs from there. isc

[baronbeeza]

Jun 7, 2015 22:32:15 GMT 12 isc said:

Ron Mark: graduated 1971 as Solier Mechanic. 1978 Officer Cadet, graduated 2nd Lieutenant. 1982 SAS, assisted (4 others)setting up peace keeping Israel & Egypt, 2 tours. Left army 1985, the 5yrs in the Sultentate of Omanarmed forces, and special forces, got a couple of gongs from there. isc

Yep, he was a truck mechanic and then got commissioned in 1978. Those that were there are saying he was then in charge of the workshops.
In 1982 I was hoping for a Sinai tour but one of my mates went, luck of the draw with postings. The MFO was quite an effort and I know several that were there. (The RNZAF provided rotary support).
Mention of the 5 Army Officers is strange, I am not sure what that means. I assumed there were many Army personnel there. Was it 5 SAS perhaps ?
They would have hardly set it up in 1982, that has to be BS. It was much bigger than that.

The thing is that I have not read anywhere that people who were about say he was with the SAS.
If you do a Google you will see many that are saying the opposite.

He may have been attached, he may have been chopped. He may have even graduated.

It just seems that the media have recently started using the term as though it adds credibility to the reporting. I am undecided but would be mighty disappointed if it turns out we were being mislead.

For me the part of the headline that stands out is 'ex-SAS MP'

[11SQNLDR]

A number of specialised trades get attached to the SAS, they wear the sand coloured beret but are not 'badged' & wear their appropriate Corps insignia on their headdress, along with their own stable belt. Told to me by one who served (a Sig) & was attached to 1 NZSAS GRP for a year.

Imagine the headlines 71 years ago - "allied troops 40km from German Forces in Normandy" Yeah Right!

[kiwithrottlejockey]

I'm ROFLMAO at this thread.

Who can remember “Beyond the Darklands” on TVNZ's ONE?

There was an episode called “The Mark Brothers” about three years ago.

Everything about Ron Mark's military service was on that episode, including his time in the NZ Army, his time in a foreign army, and his five years in special forces overseas.

It so happens that a former commander of the NZSAS, long since retired from the army, is the Medals Consultant at the NZ Defence Headquarters. He works as a part-time ticket assistant on the Wairarapa trains as part of the crew of the first train out of Masterton every weekday morning enroute to his job at Defence Headquarters in Wellington, then he works his way home on the 4:25pm train from Wellington to Masterton. I asked Jack about Ron Mark's military service this morning before we departed Masterton and he confirmed that what was on that episode of “Beyond the Darklands” is the gospel truth. I also showed Jack this thread, as well as a couple of threads at other online forums where various conspiracy theorists are coming up with all sorts of stuff about Ron Mark's military service, and Jack rolled his eyes and made a comment about “some people having too much time on their hands!”

Anyway, about ISIS being 40km away. My Dad's generation got to see the whites of the eyes of their enemy in North Africa and Egypt and nobody saw that as being anything unusual.

[baronbeeza]

This guy is ex-Army and has a good insight about the media and reporting concerning SAS deployments.
While he is obviously not ex-SAS he is coming across as looking after their interests. I would suspect it was similar reporting that gave me the ideas about the need for some secrecy about their operations although I would have been exposed to the Aussie side of their story also.

tvnz.co.nz/breakfast-news/former-mp-ron-mark-sas-soldiers-pictures-7-00-3338020

It is well worth viewing and sums up the entire situation pretty well.

[baronbeeza]

Jun 8, 2015 11:37:09 GMT 12 kiwithrottlejockey said:

Who can remember “Beyond the Darklands” on TVNZ's ONE?

There was an episode called “The Mark Brothers” about three years ago.

Everything about Ron Mark's military service was on that episode, including his time in the NZ Army, his time in a foreign army, and his five years in special forces overseas.

www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/363725/Brother-to-brother-the-MP-and-the-gang-president

Indeed I watched that programme and honestly could not say now what exactly was said. I think the series is currently being repeated so it may well be quite timely in some respects.

That is interesting stuff you have uncovered. I was thinking that this article was a complete contradiction of what we had being reported just 5 years ago.
There was some angst about details being released about the numbers, itinerary and other details of this latest deployment.

If anything I would have thought the security, and even internal security, regarding this operation was much more important than previous deployments.

I personally just had a feeling the whole thing was being milked by the media. Again I can never recall Ron Mark as being referred to as ex-SAS before so I was getting the impression the whole article was being over sensationalised.

I, personally, would much rather that we hear less of the operations if it means improved security for themselves and their families.
I also believe ISIS is a threat like no other we have experienced. The closest I came to this in my military service was the IRA and we certainly didn't make things easy for them. By the same token they changed the way we worked and acted as well.
Has NZ got to that stage yet ?

[Dave Homewood]

I have always been under the impression that ex-SAS members don't usually broadcast the fact that they are ex-SAS unless they have a book to sell or a strong point to make publicly.

What are you trying to say Bruce, you don't actually say anything. Was he or wasn't he in the SAS? Not that I really care, this pointless debate has hijacked the intent of the thread...

[kiwithrottlejockey]

Ron Mark spent five years in the special forces of the Army of Oman.

That was in the “Beyond the Darkness” episode titled “The Mark Brothers”.

And Jack Hayes confirmed it when I spoke to him this morning.

And you're right about ex-special forces people tending to not broadcast it.

Which is probably why Ron Mark is ignoring all the conspiracy theorists online at various locations.

On Mark Latta's programme, Ron didn't even talk about it....it was the programme's presenter who brought it up.

[baronbeeza]

I am not so sure of a conspiracy, - the media have made claims that Ron is ex-SAS.
The man himself has never said that, or at least that I am aware of.
My question here is what role did he play in the NZ SAS if any ?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy

Dave asked a similar question. I still doubt we have an answer.

As for the topic of the thread, well I see several aspects to that.

Are we getting presented with anything approaching 50% of the facts or truth here ?
Somehow I doubt that as well.
What we know is that we have SAS troops currently stationed in Iraq. Beyond that there are going to be several versions of the story, all depending on who you are prepared to listen to.
We saw in a TV interview just 5 years ago an ex-Army officer, former MP making claims about the need for wisdom and circumspect reporting of such events.
It seems to me that this very same character is in a new role, a new position and I am not sure he is spinning the same story now.

Why would that be ?

Surely this is the story here.
Part of this has to be his military background.
All kinds of people claim they are ex-SAS. We saw the Defence Scientist chappy make all kinds of claims until he was exposed.
Politicians seem to exaggerate their CV's and of course the media are none too fussy with presenting the truth anyway.
That leaves us guessing.

One thing I have noticed though is that Ron Mark seems to be taking on the role as Defence spokesman, or attack dog, for the opposition.
I am not aware of anyone else in Parliament with a military background so he may be in a unique situation there.
I would like to be a little better informed so I can put credence to some of the reporting.
From my experiences, and knowledge, I know all too well how things work there.

Obviously my questions centre around the change of reporting style(from 2010) and some response to Ron's SAS background the media have since come up with.
The contents of the article are just words, no need to read too much into that.
As others have said we have been as close as 400 metres in some conflicts. The worrying thing here is that this enemy may already be amongst us, both there and on home soil.
Has any article touched on that one yet ?

[kiwithrottlejockey]

Jun 8, 2015 13:36:31 GMT 12 baronbeeza said:

One thing I have noticed though is that Ron Mark seems to be taking on the role as Defence spokesman, or attack dog, for the opposition.
I am not aware of anyone else in Parliament with a military background so he may be in a unique situation there.

Well, I guess Ron Mark has one up on the current Minister of Defence who has a background as a woodwork teacher, but definitely NOT a military background.

Although I can recall Ministers of Defence from the past (when I was young) who had military backgrounds.