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Post by Mustang51 on Nov 28, 2016 18:21:30 GMT 12
P8 for my money (nothing to do with Oz buying them). Keep away from flying boats like the plague....... being eaten away from the outside and the inside !
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Post by kiwiredley on Nov 28, 2016 18:30:55 GMT 12
I really like the Kawasaki P1, especially now as Japan is trying to market it so hopefully they get some international sales. I think their own Navy is getting around 100 in the long term. I also think maybe a platform like the Casa C295MPA in the mix for shorter range SAR and Fisheries patrols.
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Post by beagle on Nov 28, 2016 18:39:58 GMT 12
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Post by madmac on Nov 28, 2016 19:41:47 GMT 12
Can't remember if this has been discussed, can the P8 actually get out of Whenuapai at gross weight if not then what, would they operate them out of Ohakea?
Sea level takeoff length for 737-900 (similar weight and power) is 3000 meters, Whenuapai runway length ~ 2000 meters.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 28, 2016 19:49:43 GMT 12
I believe the RNZAF plan is that they will get the P-8's in the next five years (maximum), and they will be operated from Mangere. No doubt the Treasury will have a whole different plan though.
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Post by beagle on Nov 28, 2016 19:50:36 GMT 12
maybe they can fit deployable ski jumps at each end of the runway to help them.
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Post by Naki on Nov 28, 2016 19:54:22 GMT 12
I believe the RNZAF plan is that they will get the P-8's in the next five years (maximum), and they will be operated from Mangere. No doubt the Treasury will have a whole different plan though. . The RFI released a few months back stated that they will be replaced in 2025 |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 28, 2016 19:56:40 GMT 12
Please can someone explain. The main issue that the RNZAF has with its Boeing 757's is they are designed to fly all the time in airline service, hardly ever cooling down. But in the Air Force they're used a lot less so that apparently causes engine issues.
Now, the P-8 Poseidon is based on a Boeing 737. They have apparently redesigned the wings to make it better for maritime ops, but does this mean they have solved the issue that airliners have in Air Force service with engine problems?
If this is the case, can these solutions not be applied to Air Force cargo variants? And if it's not the case, will the P-8 suffer from the same issues as the 757's?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 28, 2016 20:08:33 GMT 12
I believe the RNZAF plan is that they will get the P-8's in the next five years (maximum), and they will be operated from Mangere. No doubt the Treasury will have a whole different plan though. . The RFI released a few months back stated that they will be replaced in 2025 If that's the case we won't have maritime patrols for five years (like Britain). The squadron CO, several crew and the engineer officer at the squadron all told me they have to replace the aircraft within five years. They are very hard to get any spares for now that the US has stopped using them. |
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Post by beagle on Nov 28, 2016 20:13:43 GMT 12
On the other hand, the P-8A isn’t that bad at lower altitudes either. Its engines have been modified for better efficiency at lower altitudes.
quote from above link.
Not totally sure but thought the early B757 engine problem's were due to corrosion but now better sealing has remedied that problem.
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 87
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Post by chis73 on Nov 28, 2016 20:14:30 GMT 12
I'm with kiwiredley, I'll put my money on P-1. The clinchers for me against the P-8 are timing and cost. It has been reported that last orders for the P-8 are wanted by the middle of next year ( link), with production ending in the early 2020s. That is well ahead of NZG's replacement plans as announced in the recent Defence Capability Plan, which aimed at replacement not until mid-2020s at best. With the recent earthquake repair bills coming in (not to mention a looming election), I don't think NZG can spare the cash to bring the timetable forward. Nor can they afford to put back the Hercules replacement further. Reports are just coming in that Norway is now going to buy 5 P-8s ( link). Of interest is the cost: 1.1b Euro (1.7b NZD). Even if NZ only bought 4 (as Gerry Brownlee suggested in Parliament), that's still $1.4b NZD. P-8 for me also requires too many expensive add-ons to make it work eg. Triton drones, high-altitude torpedoes, and now an air-droppable MAD drone. In contrast, P-1 production will continue on steadily through the 2020s, at 5 planes a year. Current Japanese plans are for about 70 all told (P-8 in comparison will be 160-ish +/- 10). I also think the P-1 is better suited to NZ's operations (lots of SAR, where flying low & slow and having 4 engines is useful). Cheaper too. And can operate from Whenuapai at max weight. Only issues I have are lack of in-flight refueling, and some questions over the avionics & electronic systems (will the Japanese make them available or are they too secret, and do they need to be translated into English displays). I would second kiwiredley's notion of some second-tier C295s (or C-27Js). If we end up with only 4 first-line P-1 or P-8 aircraft, that seems insufficient for NZ's vast EEZ. |
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Post by beagle on Nov 28, 2016 20:16:46 GMT 12
they are still using them along with many other Air Forces and won't stop flying them till they get all their new frames which will be quite a few years yet.
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Post by beagle on Nov 28, 2016 20:25:58 GMT 12
I'm with kiwiredley, I'll put my money on P-1. The clinchers for me against the P-8 are timing and cost. It has been reported that last orders for the P-8 are wanted by the middle of next year ( link), with production ending in the early 2020s. That is well ahead of NZG's replacement plans as announced in the recent Defence Capability Plan, which aimed at replacement not until mid-2020s at best. Acquisition of an initial eight P-8As was first approved in 2014, while February’s Defence White Paper’s accompanying Integrated Investment Program revealed that, “seven additional aircraft [will] be acquired in two tranches to bring the total to 15 aircraft by the late 2020s.” |
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Post by skyhawkdon on Nov 28, 2016 20:37:20 GMT 12
. The RFI released a few months back stated that they will be replaced in 2025 If that's the case we won't have maritime patrols for five years (like Britain). The squadron CO, several crew and the engineer officer at the squadron all told me they have to replace the aircraft within five years. They are very hard to get any spares for now that the US has stopped using them. No doubt we will be offered the retired RAAF P-3s for spares to keep ours going! |
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Post by beagle on Nov 28, 2016 20:50:31 GMT 12
yeah right, they'll bury them first
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 87
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Post by chis73 on Nov 28, 2016 20:53:58 GMT 12
Acquisition of an initial eight P-8As was first approved in 2014, while February’s Defence White Paper’s accompanying Integrated Investment Program revealed that, “seven additional aircraft [will] be acquired in two tranches to bring the total to 15 aircraft by the late 2020s.” You're referring to the Australians here Beagle? Haven't they already ordered 4 of the additional 7, bringing their total to 12. |
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Post by beagle on Nov 28, 2016 20:57:43 GMT 12
yes pretty sure that would be correct.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Nov 28, 2016 21:39:40 GMT 12
they are still using them along with many other Air Forces and won't stop flying them till they get all their new frames which will be quite a few years yet. You need to listen to the interviews i did with current No. 5 Squadron RNZAF personnel very recently. The US is withdrawing the type from service and thus Lockheed is withdrawing support. This has meant other countries have snavelled up all the spares to keep their fleets going, and our aircraft are now constantly bugged by lack of spares, to the point where they are cribbing parts off the ones in maintenance at Woodbourne all the time. It's a really bad situation and they have projected if can only last for another five years maximum. I feel the Government HAS to act, they're one of our most active and important squadrons. Ignoring their needs for the sake of Treasury will have dire consequences. Also, a half-arsed replacement like this idea some have bandied about of Dash 8's or drones will be as stupid as not replacing the aircraft at all. Have a listen Beags and others. www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/WONZShow/2016/10/5-sqn-reunion/ |
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Post by joey05 on Nov 28, 2016 22:42:30 GMT 12
Imagine.....an RNZAF Kawasaki P1K (K sounds better) watching over the Japanese whaling ships in the Antarctic!
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Post by bobajob on Jan 7, 2017 20:40:01 GMT 12
When the RAAF retires their P3 aircraft maybe they could sell some to the NZ government. Is this feasible?
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