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Post by mumbles on Mar 22, 2016 13:27:27 GMT 12
this TITANIC conspiracy thing is Very very plausible Only if all that was involved was switching a few nameplates and bits of crockery. But that's not all that was involved, as the sisters were actually quite different from each other. Too different for such a switch to not have been noticed, not only by shipyard and dock workers, board certifiers, but by passengers and crew who sailed on both ships, and historians forevermore. Because of this the wreck itself is visibly identifiable as Titanic, and the differences are significant enough that both ships would have needed considerable alteration to pass as each other unnoticed. Olympic would require updating to match the Titanic plans, and Titanic backdating to match the Olympic. This wasn't just décor, the internal arrangements of staterooms walls and bulkheads were very different in places - for example Titanic's designer travelled in the maiden voyage and went down with the ship. His stateroom did not exist on the Olympic, nor did those of other prominent passengers. Besides that there are hundreds if not thousands of items traceable by serial number to each hull and recorded as such - the fittings from the Olympic in the previously mentioned hotel for example all have her hull number on them, not Titanic's. There are other items recovered from the wreck debris field bearing Titanic's hull number that would have been difficult or impossible/implausible to replace in the timeframe described. Once you get past the 90's style formatting, there is a reasonably thorough description of differences between the two sisters here: www.paullee.com/titanic/switch.htmlTwenty reasons why the switch theory fails here: www.titanicswitch.com/evidence.htmlAnd the various conspiracy claims (including the 16 portholes) examined at the same site here: www.titanicswitch.com/claims.htmlSo to pull this off you have to pay off or silence literally thousands of people, including some very rich and powerful ones, significantly alter the two largest ships in the world, and change all the documentation and blueprints to match. I find it very, very IMplausible PS I've actually got a well read copy of "The Riddle of the Titanic" in my collection. It's where the switch theory got it's real start in the current era and is actually quite a good description of the ship and the events around her sinking and subsequent British and American enquiries. It also specifically debunks the switch theory after discussing it. It's interesting that of the two co-authors one has continued to run with the theory while the other hasn't worked with him since.
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Post by jp on Mar 22, 2016 18:52:35 GMT 12
Oh FFS...... golden rule to debunk conspiracy theories, whether they be the titanic, 9/11, or the moon landings - out of the hundreds, or thousands, of people DIRECTLY involved in faking the accepted story, no-one has EVER come forward and fessed up........
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Mar 22, 2016 18:56:18 GMT 12
Amen
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Post by mumbles on Mar 22, 2016 19:01:28 GMT 12
Oh FFS...... golden rule to debunk conspiracy theories, whether they be the titanic, 9/11, or the moon landings - out of the hundreds, or thousands, of people DIRECTLY involved in faking the accepted story, no-one has EVER come forward and fessed up........ Indeed www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35411684
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Post by Ian Warren on Mar 22, 2016 20:30:50 GMT 12
Funny had a good friend stop in for the first time, been with him all day, again another Wigram visit, he was from Scotland now lives quiet a distance from Brisbane, retired and spends donating time in a Museum Oz, half part a nautical museum , first time visit to New Zealand, I mentioned this thread, he grew up around Clyde Bank, on his first to Christchurch mentioning how the city looked what Clyde Bank looked like 1950s was still bomb damaged , Mike is off to the Wanaka Airshow this weekend.
Great thing both him and his brother was in the maritime industry, not surprising I was told this was a regular occurrence swiping ships and name changing, not that we can do anything about it but it is dang interesting, getting leads, one thing he did say changing a ship name is easy and done almost in a night.
I'll miss Mike till he's back the OZ, to get more info on seafaring scams .. apparently rampart of merchant company's during the 30s,40s,and into the 1960s. ... but the history go's well back with the big names P&O and the old Shaw Savill line.
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Post by shorty on Mar 22, 2016 20:53:30 GMT 12
Ian, got a harbour bridge that you may be interested in buying, I got it as a job lot of scrap metal:-)
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Post by Ian Warren on Mar 22, 2016 21:05:02 GMT 12
Really? Switching identities over a weekend? I know the Irish like to drink, but if I was working on one ship or the other, I'm pretty sure I'd remember which dock the one I was working on was moored at...... One thing Mike did say .. he was an engineer with shipping, So had little understanding, I was a industrial engineer for 30 years but quite a little bit smaller .. payed to take a name badge off and replaced would only be a 20/35 hour job at the max. Again I compare the launch photo and the fitting out, in the short time something has seriously changed, .... this is fun studying the possible, .. look at the Bankers from the period, J.P. Morgan.Jr for example and the league of others. "I Know its "a who cares"" but this is getting really interesting Tonight they have debunked and added many hidden details only simply, one decided to open a series of logs dated back to Galipoli in an archive, they are really excited about it ... information coming to light
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Post by mumbles on Mar 22, 2016 21:07:08 GMT 12
Funny had a good friend stop in for the first time, been with him all day, again another Wigram visit, he was from Scotland now lives quiet a distance from Brisbane, retired and spends donating time in a Museum Oz, half part a nautical museum , first time visit to New Zealand, I mentioned this thread, he grew up around Clyde Bank, on his first to Christchurch mentioning how the city looked what Clyde Bank looked like 1950s was still bomb damaged , Mike is off to the Wanaka Airshow this weekend. Great thing both him and his brother was in the maritime industry, not surprising I was told this was a regular occurrence swiping ships and name changing, not that we can do anything about it but it is dang interesting, getting leads, one thing he did say changing a ship name is easy and done almost in a night. I'll miss Mike till he's back the OZ, to get more info on seafaring scams .. apparently rampart of merchant company's during the 30s,40s,and into the 1960s. ... but the history go's well back with the big names P&O and the old Shaw Savill line. Did any of these scams involve changing the shape of the wheelhouse or etching a name into hull plates on a ship 2 and a 1/2 miles deep underwater?
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Post by Ian Warren on Mar 22, 2016 21:09:26 GMT 12
Ian, got a harbour bridge that you may be interested in buying, I got it as a job lot of scrap metal:-) Arrrr, just rename it
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Post by Ian Warren on Mar 22, 2016 21:17:40 GMT 12
You have not studied the launch photo's ... and in the fitting out basin ... a brand new ship really looks So so old , check the colouration of the names plates ... the hull , study the photos and the dates of the launch and the fitting out.
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Post by mumbles on Mar 22, 2016 21:17:41 GMT 12
Again I compare the launch photo and the fitting out, in the short time something has seriously changed, .... Given that "short time" was actually a year, being launched as an effectively empty hull and going from 24,000 tons to 46,000 tons in the process from launch to sea trials, that is perhaps not surprising. The Titanic also incorporated lessons from the operation of the Olympic, so her design was being altered even while still under construction. And as is easily checked, some of those changes are visible on the wreck. It's a good story that's sold a lot of books, but that's all. It was and is promoted by someone with only a superficial knowledge of the topic, described as "bilge" by his co author, and has no basis in fact.
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Post by mumbles on Mar 22, 2016 21:24:02 GMT 12
You have not studied the launch photo's ... and in the fitting out basin ... a brand new ship really looks So so old , check the colouration of the names plates ... the hull , study the photos and the dates of the launch and the fitting out. That I haven't "studied" is your assumption, and it's not a good one. You're judging colouration on 100+ year old black and white photos, on a ship that was afloat in a busy industrial shipyard for a year before being comissioned. Gee, I wonder if they repainted it at all in that time. In fact they did. Here is the Titanic (identifiable by the configuration of the portholes around the white painted area of the stern), late in the fitting out process but before the promenade deck was enclosed. And looking at the stern and poop deck one can see it is being repainted. Compare the condition of the fresh paint to that applied before launch a year previously: If you're interested in the name plates, look at the ones etched into the hull on the atlantic sea floor. The footage of the wreck is much more compelling than launch photos that are meaningless out of context.
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Post by Ian Warren on Mar 22, 2016 21:37:54 GMT 12
With the Humms and Harrs , I thought about it, BUT, reading further with the corruption on the White Star line battling with competition it really is not that far fetched, the large shipping lines were in battle with each other and the owners all being big money bankers .. they really a bunch in themselves.
Be interest to see the real details, transcripts and logs.
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Post by Brett on Mar 22, 2016 21:38:36 GMT 12
Definitely the Titanic...
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Post by Ian Warren on Mar 22, 2016 21:44:11 GMT 12
Definitely the Titanic... WHAT ! .. NO SOUND TRACK with bubbles!
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Post by mumbles on Mar 22, 2016 21:46:51 GMT 12
With the Humms and Harrs , I thought about it, BUT, reading further with the corruption on the White Star line battling with competition it really is not that far fetched, the large shipping lines were in battle with each other and the owners all being big money bankers .. they really a bunch in themselves. Be interest to see the real details, transcripts and logs. See my edit above - Titanic was repainted after launch. You're entitled to an opinion of "not that far fetched", but you're ignoring facts to reach it. It's not far fetched, it just never happened, and there is a shipload of evidence to prove that. The Titanic disaster destroyed White Star's reputation. Why on earth would they even think that was a good idea?
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Post by Ian Warren on Mar 22, 2016 22:19:15 GMT 12
Mumbles , Thanks for the link to the debunking Missed that ! , I want to get that printed and get a separate folder/booklet made up, biggest thing is I was, I never been swayed so much by a such historical find as the Vid posted a week so back, I have three books dedicated to the ship just interest sake, one dating back to pre Dr Ballard's dives so it gives a possible look at answers, Two later books have some serious photo material .... one thing off the period is the dating and day of the work getting done , that would the most important record. To modify photos back then, one would pick up one it straight away, so it could anyone off the two ... gawd the third, but to create a Conspiracy really got my brain ticking and when looking at the photo's .. ? 104 years ago , still worth digging.
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Post by nuuumannn on Mar 22, 2016 23:36:05 GMT 12
Paul McCartney was on the Titanic?
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Post by nuuumannn on Mar 22, 2016 23:41:38 GMT 12
...or was he on the OLYMPIC!
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Post by No longer identifiable on Mar 23, 2016 11:26:54 GMT 12
Neither. He was actually seen on the third mystery ship that was formed by joining the leftover bits (this occurred after swapping the names and, presumably, addresses) of the Titanic and Olympic together to form the..... TITOMPOLYIMPIC.
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