Preservation of NZ's civil aircraft

[Dave Homewood]

Do you think that perhaps the preservation of New Zealand's civil aircraft has fallen by the wayside a little?

I mean, starting with airliners, there are a number of prewar and wartime types preserved (such as a DH86 Dragon, some DH89 Rapides, DH90 Dragonfly, Fox Moth, C-47's, Electras, etc.)

There's the solitary Solent covering the immediate postwar period and representing NZ's many flying boat types used for civil transport.

But of NZ airliners from the second half of the 20th Century, there are few representatives preserved. I can think of one Viscount (Ferrymead), two F-27 Friendships (Ashburton and Motat), one Bandeirante, and that's about it (?).

There are no jet airliners in museums. Very few commuter airliners - such as Dash 7, Dash 8, various Pipers, Cessnas and Meetroliners, etc, etc that have plied our skies.

Sure, all of these are nowhere near as interesting or as classic to the average person as a prewar biplane like a DH89 - and as most of those prewar ones had RNZAF connections too, they fall into that area where military aircraft are better represented as they have more interesting backgrounds.

Other areas of civil aviation are lacking too. Only Motat seems to have any sort of decent collection ranging from photographic aircraft to topdressers, runabouts, homebuilts and pioneers.

Where else are general avaition aircraft preserved? Hmm... anywhere?

Why does NZ not have a museum dedicated to the preservation of agricultural aviation? Surely Mystery Creek would be the perfect location, already being an agriculture museum. They could have aircraft like a Beaver, Fletcher, Cresco, AgCat, etc there with their C-47. I mean, Fieldair alone had 19 Beavers, now only two of that type flies in this country with a third in the RNZAF Museum - none in the colouirs of a topdresser. Amazing.

The Boeing 737 has an important role in the history of NZ aviation. We also should have ypes such as a DC-6, or a DC-8 and of course importantly the DC-10 in a museum for future generations. Most of these types could be found now, out of service and probably cheap - even ones that flew here.

Do you think it's worth museums trying to preserve more civil aircraft for future generations? Or is the cost of housing all these extra aircraft when important planes like the Sunderland are already decaying outdoors just not worth it?

[Bruce]

Ashburton and Ferrymead are collecting topdressing aircraft as well, but a single Ag Aviation museum would have been great. Hamish Ross was building the basis for such a museum at Rotorua in the early 1990s, until he was killed in a Fletcher crash and the collection dispersed.
Unfortunately civil aircraft worldwide do not get the preservation they need, one only has to look at last years scrapping of the large jets of the "British Airways Collection" at Cosford in the UK. Without a major benefactor committed to long term support of the collection, and a suitable location to house them, any airliner collection will struggle. The odd thing is, the PC brigade get twitchy about "glorifying war" and warplanes etc, but that is where the public interest is. Airliners and civil aircraft are boring to them. Would the public be interested in an airshow display by a 260hp Fletcher?
Displaying civil aircraft requires putting them in context in order to attract interest. Ferrymead are putting thier airliners into an "apron scene" with airport vehicles etc, an Motat have done well with thier Solent with all the TEAL memorobilia etc set up inside. I'd love to see more like this, but in practical terms I think it would be pretty hard. (A deer wars display with a Hughes 500 and Hiller fore example, with the shooter hanging out the door with a net gun.... must be do-able surely?)

[kiwi]

The guys at Tauranga deserve a mention here they have the Heron which will be returned to an early colour scheme .

[Bruce]

BTW Dave, it appears the ag museum at mystery creek has virtually died out. There are a few societies like the Clydesdale horses / blacksmithing and Fire brigade people that still operate, but I havent seen the place open for several years now. Maybe they just have odd operating hours.... Certainly the DC3 ZK-AZL wouldnt be much use as a museum exhibit now, its painted as a billborad for McDonalds lime and looks in as bad a shape as ever.

[Dave Homewood]

Indeed, Tauranga does deserve a mention. Also GAPS at Gisborne for preserving their Lodestar in civil colours.

But is it enough I wonder?

Bruce said "The odd thing is, the PC brigade get twitchy about "glorifying war" and warplanes etc, but that is where the public interest is. Airliners and civil aircraft are boring to them. "

Well we all know that the PC brigade, one with a large voice, represent about 1% or less of the population only. Most members of the public have an interest in military history due to family connections in previous wars, etc., plus growing up with exciting and adventurous war films on TV, etc.

I protest that the preservatioj of artifacts and the information about them in a museum is not glorifying war. It's ensuring people remember the sacrifices made and lessons learned. Plus a preservation of the progress of technology too. The engineering history is as important as the social and military history connected to a bomber or fighter, etc.

Let's face it, compared to those bombers and fighters civil aircraft are boring. There are not that many that get to live such interesting lives. I think the public would appreciate the likes of Pitts Specials, Hughes 500's, Crescos and a few other types as 'interesting' civil aircraft. But Cessnas and Boeings are not that interesting to anyone who lives outside of the world of the people who operate them.

That does not mean to say they shouldn't be preserved and displayed though. A heck of a lot of history is boring, but it needn't be forgotten. If a civil aviation museum combined all sorts of types from aerobatics planes to topdressers to transports to choppers, and it had active aircraft doing their stuff on occassions, it could still be an award winning tourist attraction.

[denysjones]

Picking up on your comments Bruce.

It's a well proven fact that in the first instance aircraft museums suffer from being a "bloke" thing. This then leads to the next problem of being isolationist in terms of standing alone. What do the rest of the family do while the bloke does the aircraft bit?

Then given the huge number of males who are wanna-be top-guns and you see why you end up with all these warbird (yuk I hate that term) museums.

At Ferrymead we are part of a bigger picture so if the blokes want to focus on the aircraft the girls can rock off and look at other things.

This might well give you a clue as to why more people visit Ferrymead in a year than go to Wigram.

The reason we're so focussed on the large diaorama thing is two fold.

Aircraft nutters are happy to visit places with heaps of stuff crammed into too small a place because they'll take the time to study all the bits. Joe-public wonders in and sees it all can't be bothered with the jumble, and switches off and bales out.

The other thing is that we have a contract with the Education dept and we do school visits and so we have to have something that can be used in that context. So that's another reason why the big jumble can't be tolerated.

Equally for that reason that's why we're building the separate theme hangars as the school groups need to be able to have a constrained focus otherwise the kids drift off if you know what I mean. These groups are over 10% of our visits (have a look at .

[Peter Lewis]

There has always been this conflict between the pure preservationists and those who are basically into showbiz. This has been an on-going difficulty in the past for MoTAT.
Denys you are quite right in your analysis (though I remember my first visit to Ferrymead in the late 1970s - a large junkheap - but we all have to start from somewhere).
The other factor with large aircraft is the sheer logistics of housing and maintaining them. The Solent/Lancaster/Sunderland are not 'large' by todays standards, but do present continuing problems in this regard. I would say that the problems compound geometrically as the the aircraft increases - an airframe twice the size represents four times the problem.

. . . and a 737 is somehow less sexy than a Spitfire . . .

[flyjoe180]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

[Dave Homewood]

Exactly Joe. Personally I think all modern airliners are boring and ugly, and all look the same in the way buses all look the same. But airliners.net proves there's a massive interest in them too, and if they are appreciated so deeply by so many, why not preserve a few for future generations?

It's interesting what Denys has said about the dynamics of who goes to museums. I'd never have guessed Ferrymead got more visitors than Wigram, as the latter is easier to find, more well known generally and a top attraction for Christchurch. In my many visits there I've always noticed how many families visit, not just men.

I do see what you're saying Denys and don't dispute it for a second, as Ferrymead offers a great variety for all sorts of tastes. It's just surprising to me, that's all. I think the themed hangars are a great idea too.

As for storing airliners - they're designed to live outdoors. How many ever get hangared for extended periods? So long a s a museum keeps them clean and painted, they should last for a very long time I'm sure.

[kiwi]

All credit is due to the people who make Ferrymead happen , they have found a way to encourage the public in . The crowd that run the Tauranga outfits approach is more business based , they have a cafe/ bar/restaurant and conference facility in the same building as the museum , and they promote joy rides in several aircraft types as well as helicopters . The two people who are the kingpins are both aviation enthusiast and they have gathered a fair sized group of enthusiasts who volunteer to assist in the various ways needed . From what I have seen it is a well run organisation which works and provides a great deal of fun for those involved .
As to preserving airliners , sure they tend to live outside during their working life , but if they are to last as museum exhibits a coat of paint and a clean is far short of what is needed . All openings need to be sealed , after all corrosion has been found and been treated . Engines need to inhibited etc .

[Bruce]

Yes airliners do live outside, however most of thier time they are in the cold dry air of the upper atmoshpere. When working, water doesnt pool in thier innards. They also dont have loads on the undercarriage all the time, nor the loads on the wing pulling downwards. Remember that they also get extensive maintenace every few weeks, when surface corrosion etc get dealt to before it becomes and issue. They will degrade just like any other alloy structure. just look at my old Bandit TZL and Hamilton (looking green after only 6 years) and ERU at Tauwhare (approx 4 years). The amount of money and effort British airways put into the Cosford collection (before they pulled out) was only justifiable as the work was carried out by aprentices as part of thier training - and even that eventually was too much for one of the biggest airlines in the world! Yes, I'd love to see moreairliners, displayed well. but as that will be an unlikely prospect, I'll wholeheartedly support the airliners preserved today - I'm looking forward to visiting Ferrymead when I'm down south next week!

[Dave Homewood]

Gosh, there are a lot of very fair points there that I had not considered, especially the atmosphere and wing load considerations.

I guess then it's highly improbable that we'll see any large modern airliners preserved in NZ as no-one has the money to do it (except maybe Virgin). I guess with the older airliners the facts that they're smaller and wooden helped their preservation greatly.

Bruce, I'm amazed to read Andy Moreland's Banderainte has been there just 4 years. I had a good look about a year ago and it was in very poor condition. I'd have guessed it had been there at least 15 years from the corrosion, birds nests, etc.

One civil airliner I'd love to see recreated here in NZ for a museum (particulalrly in RNZAF colours as they were so important in that role) is a DH86 Express

[denysjones]

In clarification to my point earlier re visitors Dave, the annual reports for AirForce World shows some years as figures, and others are given as graphs but the numbers appear as, graphs interpretations in ().

01/02 (33,500), 02/03 (30,700), 03/04 32,994, 04/05 (32,000), and 05/06 31,853.

The corresponding Ferrymead figures are 29,272, 40,758, 37,623, 33,280, 37,533.

This year we will see our integrated offering with the Tamaki Tours group presenting their Maori experience coupled with our township. We have also opened our Sci-Tec (science and technology) schoole programme and expect it to bring in close to 5000 children per year. Further we have a golf driving range also opening up on our western boundary. All in all Heathcote valley is becoming a major recreation destination for the city.

Can you drop me an eMail about how to post pix and I'll send you some shots.

[Dave Homewood]

Those figures are great for both museums. Thanks for that Denys.

It sounds like the additions to Ferrymead are going to be really excellent. Golf ranges are very good money spinners I hear, good choice for raising funds for projects.

As for photos, have a look at this thread, which links to a very good tutorial on how to post them.
rnzaf.proboards43.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1168764051

If that doesn't work, email me.