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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 6, 2018 11:48:44 GMT 12
This sounds like a very close call. Several of our Dakotas ended up in the sea in wartime under similar circumstances. From The Sydney Morning Herald dated Thursday 18th of April 1946
Dumping Luggage Saves Tasman Plane WELLINGTON, Wednesday.
Jettisoning of passengers' luggage and other movable articles into the Tasman Sea averted disaster in a Sydney-bound transport plane today.
One of the two engines of an R.N.Z.A.F. Dakota, carrying from New Zealand 16 passengers and a crew of five, began to fail 500 miles out from Auckland late this morning. The plane was turned back, and within an hour it lost height from 11,000ft to 5,000ft.
The luggage and other articles were thrown overboard to save the second, heavily-labouring engine. The only thing kept was a solitary bag of mail.
The Dakota's radio had sent out distress calls, and the plane was met 20 miles out from the New Zealand coast by three Air Force rescue aircraft, including a Catalina flying-boat These escorted it to a safe landing at Auckland.
During the dramatic flight, the passengers remained cool, and all except one intend to leave again for Sydney in another plane this morning. They include a 71-year-old widow, Mrs. T. Oxenford, of Rose Bay, Sydney, the only woman passenger, who has been spending a holiday in New Zealand. Other passengers in the Dakota were Mr. C. W. Hands, general manager of George Hudson Pty., Ltd., Sydney, who has just completed a survey of New Zealand timber resources and whose figures now lie at the bottom of the sea; and Air-Commodore A. de T. Nevill, vice-chief of the N.Z. air staff.
The captain of the plane, Flight Lieutenant N. Gardiner, earned the D.F.C. for piloting a heavily-damaged Lancaster bomber back to England after a raid on Berlin in August, 1943.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jun 6, 2018 14:46:03 GMT 12
Hi Dave, in fact only two RNZAF C47s were ditched at sea during WWII. NZ3521 on 12 July 1945 off Savo Island (Solomons) and NZ3526 immediately post hostilities on 24 September 1945 lost on a flight back from the islands between Espiritu Santo and Norfolk with the loss of 20 lives.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 6, 2018 15:33:49 GMT 12
Thanks Paul.
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Post by planewriting on Jun 6, 2018 15:51:51 GMT 12
Can anyone identify the aircraft involved in this incident?
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Post by planecrazy on Jun 6, 2018 19:12:57 GMT 12
Didn't something similar happen to a TEAL Sandringham as well?
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jun 7, 2018 9:01:28 GMT 12
Didn't something similar happen to a TEAL Sandringham as well? Sandringham ZK-AME departed Rose Bay, Sydney, on a regular scheduled flight to Auckland at 5.25am on 3Dec1947. She carried 29 passengers (one short of a full load) and six crew, Captain Ian Patterson commanding. Two and a half hours into the flight, the aircraft descended to 1000ft ASL due to bad weather avoidance. Shortly afterwards, the number 3 engine began to vibrate and was shut down. The aircraft was now only at 500ft. Patterson decided to return to Sydney. The other three engines were running at full power, and began to overheat. Reducing power resulted in a further height loss, and the baggage and freight was thrown overboard in order to reduce weight. By this means, ZK-AME was able to maintain 1000ft and return to Rose Bay on three engines. This event caused widespread concern, and a three-man commission was set up by the New Zealand Government to investigate cause. It was found that there were many deviations from proper procedures in the type certificates, the operating manuals, and in the performance data under tropical conditions. Paddle-bladed propellers from Ventura bombers had been fitted with no reference to Shorts or the British Civil Aviation authorities. The Sandringhams were deemed to be unsafe in their present condition, and the four aircraft were withdrawn from use on 23rd February 1948 until the faults could be rectified and additional engine cooling installed. This work was completed and the aircraft re-entered service in June.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jun 7, 2018 9:02:34 GMT 12
So the RNZAF Dakota was carrying civilian passengers?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 7, 2018 9:08:28 GMT 12
As I understand it, the RNZAF was carrying civilians on their Dakotas, DH89's and Sunderlands across NZ and in the Pacific and Tasman crossings from the end of the war through till the start of NAC in 1947 (which was simply a re-branding of No. 40 Squadron RNZAF aircraft and personnel). I'm guessing they had to be high priority passengers not sure if they were sold tickets or how that worked.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 7, 2018 9:12:36 GMT 12
This seems to be the beginning of their Trans-Tasman shuttle service, I don't know if it continued on to take civilian passengers however, or if that was later .... From the AUCKLAND STAR, 18 DECEMBER 1945
THOUSANDS WAIT
TRAVELLERS HELD UP
SUGGESTED SOLUTION
In Australia, it is reported, there are between 1300 and 1400 New Zealanders awaiting transport to their homeland. A large proportion of them are servicemen and their dependents.
In Auckland, 700 to 8OO people are registered with Tasman Empire Airways for passage to Australia. These are people who have obtained permits to travel, and who, therefore, can be presumed to have valid reasons for wishing to leave the country. Shipping companies have equally impressive waiting lists.
Business men are perturbed at the fact that, since the R.A.F. Transport Command has ceased to operate over the Pacific, there is no direct air mail link with the United States. Air mails at present travel via Australia and over the Empire route to England, and thence across the Atlantic to America, giving a far from speedy service. On the internal side, trains are booked out, and Union Airways report that there is little chance of obtaining a passage from Auckland by air before early February. To sum up, would-be travellers stand little chance of satisfying their desires, at least for some considerable time.
Aircraft Lying Idle On the other hand, New Zealand has aircraft lying idle. She has Sunderland flying-boats, which could be used on the transtasman run, Catalina flying-boats which could cover the Pacific, and Douglas Dakota transport craft which could relieve the internal air traffic block.
These machines belong to the R.N.Z.A.F., which has, of course, crews to fly them and ground staff to service them.
In view of what has amounted to a near-emergency, many consider that it would not be too much to ask of the Government that it should allow these machines to be used until the somewhat vaguely defined State civil aviation policy has had time to show some results.
The Sunderlands, which could carry 25 passengers each across the Tasman if they were put on, even temporarily, to augment the Tasman Airways service—at present carried on by two six-year-old planes—are out of commission at the moment. It is considered, however, that the installation of fealhering propellers, which they are awaiting, would not be a major operation, nor a lengthy one, if urgent need for the aircraft arose.
The Catalinas are standing in idle in ranks at Hobsonville. They are not great passenger carriers, but they are eminently suited for long runs. For over a year they flew regular passenger and mail schedules across the 3000-mile gap between Ceylon and Perth. They could easily carry seven or eight passengers in reasonable comfort—and this, it has been pointed out, was more than New Zealand's quota on the R.A.F.T.C. aircraft formerly operating across the Pacific—and could easily cope with the Dominion's air mail to the United States.
Internal Service The Air Force's Dakotas and Lockheed Lodestars have already proved that they can operate efficiently over internal air lines. To a limited extent they are carrying on a semi-commercial service to-day. There seems to be no practical reason why that service should not be increased. Why does this paradox—of aircraft standing idle while thousands wait for transport—exist?
Reasons can be found. It is believed that some of the aircraft were received by New Zealand 011 lendlease terms. Trained personnel would be needed to service and fly all machines .brought into service. This might mean that armed forces personnel would be retained in the service to serve a civilian need.
There are many who think that these reasons are neither conclusive nor convincing. They are not looking for a permanent solution of the problem along the lines suggested, but simply temporary assistance during a time of crisis.
------------------------------------------------------------- From the AUCKLAND STAR, 24 DECEMBER 1945
TASMAN FLIGHTS
EMERGENCY SERVICES
TWO R.N.Z.A.F. CATALINAS
As an emergency measure to reduce the number of New Zealand servicemen and ex-internees of the Japanese who are awaiting transport to the Dominion from Australia, the R.N.Z.A.F. has switched two Catalina flying boats from their base at Suva on to the Auckland-Sydney run.
The aircraft flew to Auckland on Friday, bringing home a number of Air Force personnel, and made the first flight to Sydney the following day with a cargo of Royal New Zealand Navy mail. One flying boat returned to Auckland yesterday with 22 passengers, and the second is returning this afternoon, between 3.30 and 4 o'clock.
Originally it had been intended to return the aircraft to Suva after completing the Tasman flight, but in view of a request received from Australia this morning it is likely that the airpraft will make at least one additional trip each.
The Catalinas have been stripped of operational equipment to make them lighter and to provide additional accommodation. They are carrying 22 passengers on each trip, and, although greater numbers have been carried in an emergency, the fact that this total can be carried on the eight and a half hours' flight from Sydney gives some idea of the weight-carrying capabilities which are a feature of the machines.
The following servicemen whose homes are In the Auckland area returned by Catalina yesterday: Squadron-Leader F. J. Mathews (Auckland), Flying-Officer C. W. Weir (Auckland), Captain A. H. Findlay (Katikati), Lieut. E. H. Thompson (Morrinsville), Lieut. R. P. Evans (Auckland). Two Xew Zealand members of the W.A.A.F., Flight-Officer M. E. Fearnlcy (Otaki) and Corporal M. L. S. Baxte;(Whakatane), also returned on the aircraft.
Former civilian internees of the Japanese included: The Rev. E. G. Jansen (Masterton), Mr. J. Gordon (Port Chalmers), Mr. G. J. M. Loader (North Auckland). Police Sergeant J. E. Hayward (Whangarei), Miss A. Lilburnc (Auckland), Miss F. M. Wilson (Napier). Among the passengers on the aircraft arriving this afternoon are 17 military cadets from Duntroon, who are returning to the Dominion on leave. A number of naval personnel are also making the flight.
------------------------------------------------- From the AUCKLAND STAR, 28 DECEMBER 1945
EMERGENCY SERVICE
AIR FORCE CATALINAS
AUCKLAND-SYDNEY FLIGHTS
R.N.Z.A.F. Catalina flying boats are continuing to maintain the emergency air service between Auckland and Sydney, designed to reduce the waiting list of New Zealanders in Australia who are anxious to return home. Three aircraft are being used for the operation, two making the flights while the third remains at Auckland as a stand-by. Twenty-two passengers are being carried on each Catalina left for Sydney this morning. A second aircraft is crossing the Tasman in the opposite direction to-day and will arrive in Auckland this afternoon.
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Post by planewriting on Jun 7, 2018 9:29:36 GMT 12
If I recall correctly I'm sure I read somewhere of a Sandringham flight, ex Rose Bay, when the engines were not performing properly. On this occasion I think it turned out that although the right labels were on the fuel drums the contents pumped into the aircraft turned out to be vegetable oil. Whatever it was, it "was not true to label". Was this the same occasion?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 7, 2018 9:32:57 GMT 12
Here's an article on the Sandringham incident from the BAY OF PLENTY TIMES, 4 DECEMBER 1947
TASMAN AIRCRAFT IN DIFFICULTIES
SAFE RETURN TO SYDNEY
Failure Of One Engine
Luggage And Freight Jettisoned
(P.A.) Auckland, today. With one engine out of action and the aircraft in rain and rough weather only 200 ft above the sea, the flying-boat New Zealand, of Tasman Empire Airways, Ltd., turned back, for Sydney after flying some 400 miles toward Auckland yesterday morning.
With her 29 passengers and crew of six. the plane reached Sydney safely shortly after 2 o'clock in the afternoon, Now Zealand time, but for the first time in the company's history it was necessary to jettison all luggage and the 264lb of freight carried. No ordinary mail was aboard, and the small quantity of diplomatic mail was saved.
Two other aircraft in the vicinity when the New Zealand lost the use of her inner starboard engine, a sister-ship, the R.M.A. Auckland, and a Catalina flying-boat of the Royal Australian Air Force air-sea rescue service, escorted the New Zealand back to Sydney, all three flying-boats alighting in close company. A message from Sydney states that a spokesman of Tasman Airways announced that the company would probably reimburse passengers for their losses and would immediately replace necessary articles. The general manager, Mr G. N. Roberts, said in Auckland last night that all passengers' luggage was insured. Among the freight saved from the cargo of R.M.A. New Zealand yesterday were films and photographs of the Royal wedding. An official of Tasman Empire Airways, Ltd., said 1500lb of baggage, nearly 600lb of freight and 303lb of the company's stores were dumped.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jun 7, 2018 9:58:31 GMT 12
the aircraft was NZ3551 pilot Flt Lt Norman Gardiner on 17 April 1946 (see page 67 of DC3 Southern Skies Pioneer for details. N.B. NZ3551 now preserved in the air force museum of NZ aircraft was carrying 16 fare paying passengers
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Post by johnnyfalcon on Jun 7, 2018 17:35:41 GMT 12
So she has even more historicity!
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flymac
Pilot Officer
Posts: 45
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Post by flymac on Jun 7, 2018 20:21:26 GMT 12
I think the record of loosing only 2 Dakotas in the Pacific Theatre is admirable. The transport crews flew a lot of hours for long periods of time over water, so a credit to the flight and ground crews to keep the C47s and C60s operational. From my Dad's logbook - He was a passenger in a C47 3536 from Whenuapai to Espiritu Santo non stop for 10.35 hours. Not bad for a Dak.
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Post by noooby on Jun 8, 2018 4:11:48 GMT 12
So the trans-Tasman route in a C-47 is non-stop? Or did they route through Lord Howe? If it was non-stop that would be a loooong flight in a not so comfy bird!
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Post by Peter Lewis on Jun 8, 2018 9:00:10 GMT 12
22 pax in a Catalina would be a tight squeeze, the much larger Short Empire boats only carried 19. Even though I am a flying boat addict I'd think twice about a trans-tasman Cat flight in that little space.
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flymac
Pilot Officer
Posts: 45
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Post by flymac on Jun 8, 2018 9:25:15 GMT 12
So the trans-Tasman route in a C-47 is non-stop? Or did they route through Lord Howe? If it was non-stop that would be a loooong flight in a not so comfy bird! I do recall seeing a photo of NZ personnel in a RNZAF Dakota sharing the cabin with an auxiliary fuel tank down the middle of the aircraft. Just doing some Google distance navigation checks. ( I think these are standard miles, not nautical miles used by the navigators. Whenuapai to Espiritu Santo 1558 miles. (That long non stop flight is recorded in the Daily Log of 19 Squadron - 30th June 1945). Whenuapai to Sydney 1345 miles Whenuapai to Norfolk 620 miles Now if the DC3 was 500 miles out of Whenuapai on the Great Circle route it would be approximately 520 miles South of Norfolk Island. As the aircraft had radio contact the best alternate option would be Kaitaia (430 miles) then Whenuapai (500 miles). Clearly if the DC3 could fly non stop to Espiritu Santo then Sydney was a suitable hop and shorter than going via Norfolk or Lord Howe.
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Post by kiwithrottlejockey on Jun 10, 2018 15:50:44 GMT 12
If I recall correctly I'm sure I read somewhere of a Sandringham flight, ex Rose Bay, when the engines were not performing properly. On this occasion I think it turned out that although the right labels were on the fuel drums the contents pumped into the aircraft turned out to be vegetable oil. Whatever it was, it "was not true to label". Was this the same occasion? That was a TEAL Short S.45A Solent 4 flying-boat. Somewhere at home in one of my bookcases is a book which tells the tale of that incident within its contents. However, I'm currently a moving target (have been travelling for the past couple of weeks), so don't have access to my book library at the moment and also haven't been online much. If nobody else comes up with the answer before I get home again in a couple of days, I'll go looking for the book in question and post details of the incident.
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Post by tbf25o4 on Jun 11, 2018 10:12:45 GMT 12
RNZAF wartime C47s on those island support flights had an internal tank in the main cabin which fuel was transferred to the main tank. An explosion during transfer is one of the theories for the loss of NZ3526 in September 1945. On 3 December 1947 Sandringham ZK-AME suffered had an engine failure on a flight from Rose Bay to Auckland. the aircraft fell to around 100ft above the sea and all the passengers baggage was tossed overboard and the aircraft returned to Rose Bay. A Royal Commission of inquiry found many errors in servicing of those engines, wrong propellors fitted etc (The Golden Age of New Zealand Flying Boats Chapter 19)
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jun 11, 2018 10:49:15 GMT 12
I reckon you need to release another run of your DC-3 book Paul, I have never had the opportunity yo see a copy for sale, seems to be rare as hen's teeth.
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