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Post by Bruce on Apr 25, 2019 13:21:37 GMT 12
I notice at our local ANZAC parade this morning, and in photos from other smaller towns, that the Army Gaurds of honour around cenotaphs this year have been carry pikes, rather than rifles at "Arms reversed". I assume this is as a result of "sensitivities" after the Christchurch shooting. I am absolutely appalled seeing this.
Firstly, the "pikes" are absolute rubbish, they are just bamboo poles with some kind of "metal" point added (and sometimes flags) - they look makeshift like something you would see in a school pantomime.
Secondly, New Zealand armed forces have absolutely no heritage of ever using such a weapon at any time in their history. It has no relevance at all to them. A Taiaha would be more appropriate!
Its a cop out to the "PC" "scared of guns" brigade. The Army Should have rifles - It is their role to bear arms so we don't have to. They should not be afraid of that role, and their heritage.
It seems we are OK with having armed police with live weapons in our communities protecting mosques etc, but having soldiers on ceremonial guard duties with inert rifles is offense... Go figure...
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 25, 2019 13:44:09 GMT 12
Bruce, You should know how dangerous it is to assume as you are WRONG. While I have not seen the pictures you mention I'm almost certain you are seeing the catafalque party carrying Lances which have been used on ceremonial occasions by members of the Royal New Zealand Armoured Corps for years in recognition of their lineage back to horse mounted units. Your claim that 'New Zealand armed forces have absolutely no heritage of ever using such a weapon at any time in their history' is also wrong. All the lances that are used ceremonially today are weapons that have been held in units since they were originally used by the original NZ territorial Cavalry units such as Canterbury Yeomanry Cavalry etc. Have a look at this link for 1913 photographic proof www.odt.co.nz/opinion/100-years-ago/grand-plan-esplanadeSo the Army is not being 'PC' and you don't need to be 'appalled'. They are just displaying their heritage! |
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Post by Bruce on Apr 25, 2019 13:55:22 GMT 12
OK, so they just suddenly decided to honour this bit of their heritage this year? Without enough time to even make convincing looking lances...(Bamboo surely would never have been a heritage material...) OK, I am probably wrong saying they were never used, but the switch seems to be a definite choice to go to something "less warry". The unit in my town is also a "Mounted Rifles" unit, not Cavalry... semantics I know, but the sudden change is very noticeable, and, in my opinion, unfortunate.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 25, 2019 14:32:31 GMT 12
Bruce. Give it up, you're so wrong. I have carried a Lance on numerous ceremonial parades dating back at least 20 years. I have even done unit 'Barrack Guards' where the entire guard were only carrying Lances. You just haven't seen them before.
Lances were made from bamboo due to it's flexibility, resilience and ability to take shock i.e. when used on horse back for Tent Pegging. After all the ones on parade today date back to at least the 1900's, not bad durability.
The current Mounted Rifles heritage includes a small number of even earlier pre-WW1 cavalry units.
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chasper
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 80
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Post by chasper on Apr 25, 2019 16:09:36 GMT 12
I am with Bruce here, I have attended Anzac parades for about 30 years all over the country and never seen pikes. I used to wear green and paraded in uniform many times. The standing joke was that we should not be allowed to have bayonets fixed as someone would cut themselves. I did see cadets carrying toy rifles a few times and this seemed so wrong but have never seen spikes and certainly not by serving soldiers. Our military is, if you talk to those who currently serve, becoming more and more PC and this must be a reaction to recent events.
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Post by Bruce on Apr 25, 2019 16:21:08 GMT 12
30sqnatc, thank you for filling in some background, I honestly did learn something. Ancient cavalry weapons really arent something I know anything about. As noted though, I have attended parades for 15 years or so, almost all of which had the QAMR as officiating guard. They have always had, up until this point Steyrs or the new infantry weapon (sorry I dont know what it is called) I pay attention because I know how tricky it is to do reverse arms drill with a bullpup. Never pikes / Lances - As you have said - I just havent seen them before - if I had, I wouldnt be making a fuss about it. Likewise, I have never seen any in all the hundreds of images of other services that flood media and social platforms every year. The point remains, and I stand by it, that someone along the line has decided that this year, that rather than using firearms, heritage weapons will be used instead. The reason? take a guess, its not hard to work out why. and that, I beleive is letting the side down.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 25, 2019 19:38:34 GMT 12
'The reason? take a guess, its not hard to work out why' .... Darn you've guessed the secret - there aren't enough of the new weapons to equip every ANZAC Day parade all at once.
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Post by exkiwiforces on Apr 25, 2019 21:10:59 GMT 12
'The reason? take a guess, its not hard to work out why' .... Darn you've guessed the secret - there aren't enough of the new weapons to equip every ANZAC Day parade all at once. Crikey if Bruce is having a whinged over a Lance Guard!! I would hate to see what his response would be to Monty’s and his lads turning in No1 Highland Dress and Armed with Claymore Swords not the M18A1 variety? It’s bad a enough seeing Monty wear that stupid idiotic Green Infantry Beret instead of the Grey Beret of RSDG’s😆 |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 26, 2019 10:56:48 GMT 12
The New Zealand Home Guard were part of the New Zealand Army and many of their units carried pikes.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 26, 2019 15:51:18 GMT 12
The New Zealand Home Guard were part of the New Zealand Army and many of their units carried pikes. There have been several posts on this thread using the titles 'pike' and 'lance'. They are different, a lance is a weapon used by mounted soldiers while a pike is used by infantry. A pike is longer (and I think heavier) than a lance and used by formations of infantry against both mounted and dismount foe. In WW2 the British Home Guard were initially issued pikes as an anti-paratrooper weapon. Dave, were the HG actually part of the NZ Army? I've just been reading about the British HG and initially they were very separate for the armed services. In NZ they appear to be part of the Emergency Precautions Scheme. |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 26, 2019 16:13:48 GMT 12
The NZ HG began as a private venture promoted by the RSA forming the Auxiliary Reserve. Then in about August 1940 the government took it over whilst also setting up the Emergency Precautions Scheme. It was taken under the wing of the Army and the battalions of the HG became part of the Military Area structure.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Apr 26, 2019 20:05:35 GMT 12
Thanks, I had no knowledge of the NZ HG setup.
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Post by 30sqnatc on May 1, 2019 17:19:23 GMT 12
30sqnatc, thank you for filling in some background, I honestly did learn something. Ancient cavalry weapons really arent something I know anything about. As noted though, I have attended parades for 15 years or so, almost all of which had the QAMR as officiating guard. They have always had, up until this point Steyrs or the new infantry weapon (sorry I dont know what it is called) I pay attention because I know how tricky it is to do reverse arms drill with a bullpup. Never pikes / Lances - As you have said - I just havent seen them before - if I had, I wouldnt be making a fuss about it. Likewise, I have never seen any in all the hundreds of images of other services that flood media and social platforms every year. The point remains, and I stand by it, that someone along the line has decided that this year, that rather than using firearms, heritage weapons will be used instead. The reason? take a guess, its not hard to work out why. and that, I beleive is letting the side down. Bruce, Just to close this thread off, I spoke to the RSM of the unit who provided the lance armed catafalque parties. As I suspected, the decision had nothing to do with the Canterbury massacre. The decision was made four months BEFORE ANZAC Day triggered by a request from one of the local organising committee members asking to do something different so no one let the side down. By the way he commented that you were not the only one to come to the wrong conclusion on why Lances were used this year. Edited as keeps changing catafalque to catalogue - grrrr |
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 1, 2019 20:56:40 GMT 12
It was actually publicised a year ago just after the last ANZAC Day that Cambridge's guard would no longer be firing volleys or carrying rifles. There was a bit of a hoohaa at the time. I guess some people have forgotten that?
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Post by Bruce on May 1, 2019 21:46:52 GMT 12
OK, it appears I was mistaken and I accept that. I knew we werent going to have the volley this year, but I don't recall the bit about not carrying rifles. I must have missed that.
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Post by 11SQNLDR on May 2, 2019 2:15:51 GMT 12
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