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Post by nighthawknz on Jul 13, 2019 0:59:09 GMT 12
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Post by beegeetee on Jul 13, 2019 5:15:00 GMT 12
We can but dream.
Three T26s would be pretty sweet.
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Post by machina on Jul 13, 2019 9:07:12 GMT 12
Four would be even better.
Why is it an unlikely platform choice?
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Post by nighthawknz on Jul 13, 2019 10:25:19 GMT 12
Four would be even better. Why is it an unlikely platform choice? Oh course NZDF and the RNZN would show signs f interest... However Cost... way out of our budget if we want to get a more than one hull in the water with more than the sailors on the upper deck saying "Bang, Bang.... I got you... you are dead...", the aussies replying "nah mate yah dreamin, yah didn't yah missed by a country mile..." I dear say we will most likely run with the T-31e (that would be my guess) still a capable vessel just less capable than the T-26. Also the T-26 is twice the tonnage of our current ANZACs at 6900 tonnes and the ANZACs are 3600. It means we can afford more hulls in the water, as well up arm them to make them more capable. |
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Post by richard1098 on Jul 13, 2019 11:08:10 GMT 12
With three very different variants of the design currently planned, which would the RNZN be interested in? The UK variant is probably the least capable, and least costly.
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Post by ErrolC on Jul 13, 2019 11:19:01 GMT 12
Frigate replacement is post-2035 (per the just-released Plan), talking about specific variants is jumping the gun! Having minor participation at this stage has some merit, but I think the programme gets a bigger benefit from sounding like more customers are involved.
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Post by beaufighter4 on Jul 28, 2019 19:28:22 GMT 12
One has to remember that the interest that 'NZ is showing in the type 26 was more than likely generated by BAE PR department the main beneficiaries' of such interest. I think the type31e Arrowhead 140 is more likely and a hell of a lot cheaper
edit ; then I suppose you could look at lots of others and I do know there has been more than a passing interest in the Vanguard 130 from the Singapore ST Marine stable
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Post by senob on Jul 28, 2019 21:38:30 GMT 12
One has to remember that the interest that 'NZ is showing in the type 26 was more than likely generated by BAE PR department the main beneficiaries' of such interest. I think the type31e Arrowhead 140 is more likely and a hell of a lot cheaper edit ; then I suppose you could look at lots of others and I do know there has been more than a passing interest in the Vanguard 130 from the Singapore ST Marine stable The ST Vanguard 130 is quite an interesting ship and I think the RNZN would want to replace the 76 mm gun with the 5 inch Mk 45 Mod 4 gun for Naval Gun Support. It just offers a longer range and heavier weight of shell, plus many of the capabilities of the 155 mm Excalibur artillery shell are now being brought to the 5 in naval gun with the new 5 in "Excalibur" type shell. The full delivery of Singapore's ships aren't due until 2030 so if NZ were to go down that route then no problems with a crowded build line, at present anyway. The Type 31e Arrowhead is a UK variant of the OMT F370 frigate that the Royal Danish Navy sail as the Iver Huitfeld class. If NZ was to go down that route we'd be better off acquiring a license from OMT and build a NZ bespoke variant in South Korea, Japan, or Singapore, having it fitted out to NZ specifications. That way we'd avoid all the UK / RN "bright ideas" that would turn out to be very expensive both cost wise and time wise. The other thing with the Type 31e is that the UK would want it built in a UK yard which is expensive in itself. If we were to have 2 ships built in a UK yard we could just about have 3 built in a South Korean, Japanese, or Singaporean yard for the same amount of money, quicker and to a higher build quality. We would also be able to choose our own integrator and the integrator is a very important player in the build, because they have to integrate all the weapons, sensors, vox & data comms, computers, etc., with the combat management system. |
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Post by macnz on Sept 12, 2019 20:56:21 GMT 12
UK just announced Arrowhead 140 winner for Type 31e produuction. Provided the programme survives Brexit, then Arrowhead maybe a worthy candidate as a frigate replacement for NZ (more so than the Type 26?) ...certainly maybe more affordable. The 2nd gen. (FFX) Incheon-class frigate may also prove to be a strong contender given the experience NZ has with HHI yards producing vessels for us, I summise. But hey Cabinet & NZDF will have a whole decade (+3-4 elections) to procastinate over the competition and its contenders. I just hope someone sees the logistical wisdom in rebuilding to a 3 (or better yet back to 4) Frigate fleet for replacement.  www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-49670332   |
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Post by senob on Sept 13, 2019 20:59:11 GMT 12
UK just announced Arrowhead 140 winner for Type 31e produuction. Provided the programme survives Brexit, then Arrowhead maybe a worthy candidate as a frigate replacement for NZ (more so than the Type 26?) ...certainly maybe more affordable. The 2nd gen. (FFX) Incheon-class frigate may also prove to be a strong contender given the experience NZ has with HHI yards producing vessels for us, I summise. But hey Cabinet & NZDF will have a whole decade (+3-4 elections) to procastinate over the competition and its contenders. I just hope someone sees the logistical wisdom in rebuilding to a 3 (or better yet back to 4) Frigate fleet for replacement. www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-49670332 As I've posted above, but I'll reiterate. The Type 31e Arrowhead is a UK variant of the OMT F370 frigate that the Royal Danish Navy sail as the Iver Huitfeld class. If NZ was to go down that route we'd be better off acquiring a license from OMT and build a NZ bespoke variant in South Korea, Japan, or Singapore, having it fitted out to NZ specifications. That way we'd avoid all the UK / RN "bright ideas", RN continuously changing its specs, and the MOD cutting costs by cutting corners and capabilities, which would turn out to be very expensive both cost wise and time wise. The other thing with the Type 31e is that the UK would want it built in a UK yard which is expensive in itself.
I really like the F370 design because it's a very practical design that is very maintenance and upgrade friendly because it was built using commercial building practices rather than traditional naval build practices. Cables and piping aren't buried behind bulkheads, decks and deckheads, but out in the open where they are quickly and easily accessible. The ships computing hardware including monitors are all open architecture, meaning that reroling for missions etc., is just a software change and upgrades especially for the AESA radar and new sonars are now software driven. Plus it has plenty of room for future upgrades.
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Post by macnz on Sept 14, 2019 13:53:04 GMT 12
I concur Senob, license the design from OMT and get HHI yards to fabricate would be cheaper and way more predictable than being subjugated to an Oz (Hunter) or UK (type 31e) productio & scheduling.
Hopefully the lifecycle cost & benefits case associated with this design might convince Treasury to secure the build to 2027-29 rather than sweat it out to 2035!
Does anyone know if Indonesia signed the deal to buy their 2 Iver Huitfeldts? I read the design was lead contender in their frigate competition in March but nothing reported since? There was a delivery target of 2025-26.
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Post by senob on Sept 14, 2019 21:33:38 GMT 12
I have heard that regarding defence procurement under the current Indonesian administration it is best practice only to take any announcement as official when the acquisition physically arrives in Indonesia in Indonesian markings.
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Post by machina on Sept 15, 2019 8:08:35 GMT 12
A bit like New Zealand's then.
There's no American option for a replacement is there?
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dgd911
Flying Officer
Posts: 56
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Post by dgd911 on Sept 15, 2019 14:12:26 GMT 12
I concur Senob, license the design from OMT and get HHI yards to fabricate would be cheaper and way more predictable than being subjugated to an Oz (Hunter) or UK (type 31e) productio & scheduling. Hopefully the lifecycle cost & benefits case associated with this design might convince Treasury to secure the build to 2027-29 rather than sweat it out to 2035! Does anyone know if Indonesia signed the deal to buy their 2 Iver Huitfeldts? I read the design was lead contender in their frigate competition in March but nothing reported since? There was a delivery target of 2025-26. I attended an international trade seminar a short while ago and China is quickly becoming one of, if not the, largest NZ trade partner. The imbalance in trade is somewhat set off by purchases such as the Kiwirail DL locomotive fleet and wagons for containers. The locos were/are manufactured in Dalian with German Diesel engines. Dalian is also where some the PLAN 052d destroyers originate. These are appearing one every couple months, 20+ already, and hull costs look very attractive, complete fitout very comparable to the sterling 250M touted for each type 31e. Size, tonnage and weapons fit very similar too. So an opportunity for NZ to offset growing trade imbalance, get 3 or 4 well designed and featured destroyers at a great price. A hull only deal would be perfect so that weapons and sensor fitout could be done locally or in Canada/Australia. Is this scenario impossible? Is China from a military standpoint considered the ‘enemy’ at some level. Would other western suppliers of weapons, sensors etc just refuse to fit out China built destroyer hulls? |
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Post by nighthawknz on Sept 15, 2019 14:49:11 GMT 12
I attended an international trade seminar a short while ago and China is quickly becoming one of, if not the, largest NZ trade partner. The imbalance in trade is somewhat set off by purchases such as the Kiwirail DL locomotive fleet and wagons for containers. The locos were/are manufactured in Dalian with German Diesel engines. Dalian is also where some the PLAN 052d destroyers originate. These are appearing one every couple months, 20+ already, and hull costs look very attractive, complete fitout very comparable to the sterling 250M touted for each type 31e. Size, tonnage and weapons fit very similar too. So an opportunity for NZ to offset growing trade imbalance, get 3 or 4 well designed and featured destroyers at a great price. A hull only deal would be perfect so that weapons and sensor fitout could be done locally or in Canada/Australia. Is this scenario impossible? Is China from a military standpoint considered the ‘enemy’ at some level. Would other western suppliers of weapons, sensors etc just refuse to fit out China built destroyer hulls? It will never happen... |
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Post by senob on Sept 15, 2019 20:41:36 GMT 12
A bit like New Zealand's then. There's no American option for a replacement is there? No, because they don't have any current frigates in service. They've started a new frigate building program with a RFT (Request For Tenders) issued late last year / earlier this year and now closed, with those tenders being assessed at the moment. Also, any US built frigate would be quite expensive, so we probably wouldn't go down that track. The other thing is that their frigate requirements, CONOPS and specs are different to ours, plus I am given to understand that they have problems with a decreasing number of naval capable shipyards. |
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Post by senob on Sept 15, 2019 20:42:34 GMT 12
An interview with the RN Engineering officer in charge of the Type 31e project.
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Post by beaufighter4 on Sept 18, 2019 19:21:21 GMT 12
please ignore this post I am half asleep with a glass of red.
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Post by kiwirob on Oct 13, 2019 1:45:16 GMT 12
I’d just like to point out the Babcock Type 31 and the Danish Ivers are now quite different vessels, the are more different than they are a like.
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Post by beegeetee on Oct 26, 2019 10:59:38 GMT 12
With three very different variants of the design currently planned, which would the RNZN be interested in? The UK variant is probably the least capable, and least costly. If NZ did go for the T26 (who knows what will happen geopolitically in the next decade or how much the cost of the T26 will come down as production ramps up), I think a version of the Canadian vessel might be the best option. It has the CMS 330 and Sea Ceptor which has continuity with the Anzacs, plus you get the advanced AAW capability conferred by LM's SSR + Mk41 + Aegis AAW software module. And all that is on top of, arguably, the best ASW platform. It's a very impressive vessel. |
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