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Post by nighthawknz on Aug 21, 2019 17:10:27 GMT 12
So we need to go back to a four frigate navy... then... |
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Post by saratoga on Aug 21, 2019 17:36:50 GMT 12
Did the Minister of Defence really say 'we don't have any boats to send'?.
Plenty of boats available, bugger all ships, which is what would have been requested.
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Post by tfly on Aug 21, 2019 19:22:37 GMT 12
So we need to go back to a four frigate navy... then... We couldn’t even be ‘ironic’ and send a tanker 😉😂 |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Aug 21, 2019 19:36:08 GMT 12
Should we also not question the logic of synchronising the work on frigates in such a way that we have none operational. On top of the budget blowout very questionable project management.
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Post by madmac on Aug 21, 2019 19:43:20 GMT 12
Should we also not question the logic of synchronising the work on frigates in such a way that we have none operational. In addition, where are the frigate crews at the moment, are the patrol boats fully manned because the frigates are out of service? |
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Post by machina on Aug 21, 2019 20:01:00 GMT 12
I can't even exclaim "unbelievable", as this is unfortunately all too believable with regard to how we do things in this country.
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Post by mcmaster on Aug 21, 2019 20:04:16 GMT 12
I bet we (Australia) wished we could say we didn't have any boats to spare. I dont think anyone thinks the US is handling the Iran issue well. However the presence of more ships might actually stop it escalating..we hope. Anyway there was talk the US may have asked Aus to base missiles in NT so against that easier to send a boat the the ME. Re NZ frigates I agree somewhat odd to have both out of action and the lack of news re them has me hoping not something up with the program.. Other than costs..
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dgd911
Flying Officer
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Post by dgd911 on Aug 21, 2019 20:13:36 GMT 12
I can't even exclaim "unbelievable", as this is unfortunately all too believable with regard to how we do things in this country. Isn’t there a RAN Anzac frigate laid up due to lack of crew? Maybe Ron could arrange to lease it for 6 months until our own Anzacs return. Or did the RAN find crew from one of their recent retiring frigates? |
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 21, 2019 20:51:01 GMT 12
I don't think this is as embarrassing for New Zealand as it is for Britain, who once had the most powerful Navy in the world and could have easily stopped any such trouble in a heartbeat, but now has depleted it's own military so badly it has to try and bludge help from the poorest of poor relations.
Personally I think New Zealand is best to stay well away from that whole Middle East shipping balls up. I do not believe half the rubbish the US government claims is happening there. But if there really are Iranians taking over and boarding oil tankers, then nothing would stop them also capturing a largely undefended Kiwi frigate and then the whole situation would be royally up shit creek. The Air Force would be forced to sink it.
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Post by mcmaster on Aug 21, 2019 21:12:06 GMT 12
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Post by senob on Aug 21, 2019 21:15:12 GMT 12
Should we also not question the logic of synchronising the work on frigates in such a way that we have none operational. We should, but then the decision as made at Cabinet level and that would be too logical for the politicians. Also more seriously it comes from have a two frigate navy and here the rule of threes is very well illustrated. If we had a third frigate we would of always had one available. Secondly because the govt stuffed around so long - politicans kept putting it off, we weren't able to slot one frigate inbetween the RCN Halifax frigate upgrades. Ideally we should've slotted the first ANZAC frigate in before the last Halifax upgrade and then the second ANZAC afterwards.
In addition, where are the frigate crews at the moment, are the patrol boats fully manned because the frigates are out of service? [/quote] There are skeleton crews in Canada supporting the upgrades and keeping the ships "alive", plus undergoing training on the new systems there and working with the RCN. I understand that the crew of Te Kaha will be heading back to Canada shortly, if they already haven't gone, to bring the ship back on line and undertake trials etc., and what not before it returns to NZ. The crew of Te Mana will be undergoing training in the simulator here. I can't even exclaim "unbelievable", as this is unfortunately all too believable with regard to how we do things in this country. Isn’t there a RAN Anzac frigate laid up due to lack of crew? Maybe Ron could arrange to lease it for 6 months until our own Anzacs return. Or did the RAN find crew from one of their recent retiring frigates? The NZ govt wouldn't lease a third frigate because it would cost money, plus politically, the current govt would find it unpallatable, because it would be admitting that two frigates are not enough, and it goes against their party beliefs and would upset their core constituency - ie., they'd lose votes and be turfed out at party candidate selection meetings for the next election.
The RAN ANZAC frigates are currently going through a platform systems upgrade and I'm not sure how far they are through. Most of the crews of the three recently retired Adelaide class frigates have gone to the new Hobart Class DDGs. Like the RNZN, the RAN does have crewing problems in some branches. |
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Post by gibbo on Aug 21, 2019 21:18:02 GMT 12
Should we also not question the logic of synchronising the work on frigates in such a way that we have none operational. In addition, where are the frigate crews at the moment, are the patrol boats fully manned because the frigates are out of service? Part of me thinks getting involved with that particular operation may not be wise, but conversely I also think if a big enough number of countries make a stand Iran will be isolated on the issue & the bluff & rhetoric won't be allowed to escalate. However our Frigates are the only thing I'd risk sending into that area. We should be able to use our OPV for such work however the decision by somebody, whoever that may be, to so lightly arm them has put paid to that. RNZN could as an operational activity up-arm them with a number of manually operated .5 cals but even then I'd be dubious about sending them without UAV & enough RWS to cover all 360 degrees of surface approach. Look at HMS Echo, RN survey vessel, she carries considerably more weaponry than our OPV so why do the RN see such a need for a survey vessel when we don't see a similar need for a patrol vessel? I think it comes down to experience! Do the RNZN simply refuse to see a need to ever use them in a situation where fast light boats could be a threat? That could be anywhere including the Sth Pacific.. in fact I'd argue that's the biggest threat if the SthPac got tetchy! I'd have thought with a 2 Frigate Navy we'd want to have OPV that could fill that gap between needing a Frigate & needing a Constabulary vessel... obviously the Govt of the day didn't want to but that could've been done subsequently, and now the SOPV is to be no different. Is this same thinking that leads us to have both Frigates out of service together; a tanker scrapped almost 3 years before it's replacement; a dive vessel sold off 2 years before a replacement....? Ok rant over... but it is embarrassing! |
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Post by nighthawknz on Aug 21, 2019 21:34:40 GMT 12
Ok rant over... but it is embarrassing! I think you are ranting to the converted... lol |
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Post by saratoga on Aug 21, 2019 22:18:00 GMT 12
It would be very beneficial if the Iranians or any other players could please arrange for hostile activites to be during times of full capability availability...that would stop all wars then.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Aug 21, 2019 23:23:44 GMT 12
Perhaps the Navy could all do a haka and scare the attackers witless. But if it came to a actual fight my money would be on the mercenaries taking the ship, whether they are Iranian or CIA trained. |
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dgd911
Flying Officer
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Post by dgd911 on Aug 22, 2019 18:59:39 GMT 12
Should we also not question the logic of synchronising the work on frigates in such a way that we have none operational. We should, but then the decision as made at Cabinet level and that would be too logical for the politicians. Also more seriously it comes from have a two frigate navy and here the rule of threes is very well illustrated. If we had a third frigate we would of always had one available. Secondly because the govt stuffed around so long - politicans kept putting it off, we weren't able to slot one frigate inbetween the RCN Halifax frigate upgrades. Ideally we should've slotted the first ANZAC frigate in before the last Halifax upgrade and then the second ANZAC afterwards.
In addition, where are the frigate crews at the moment, are the patrol boats fully manned because the frigates are out of service? There are skeleton crews in Canada supporting the upgrades and keeping the ships "alive", plus undergoing training on the new systems there and working with the RCN. I understand that the crew of Te Kaha will be heading back to Canada shortly, if they already haven't gone, to bring the ship back on line and undertake trials etc., and what not before it returns to NZ. The crew of Te Mana will be undergoing training in the simulator here. Isn’t there a RAN Anzac frigate laid up due to lack of crew? Maybe Ron could arrange to lease it for 6 months until our own Anzacs return. Or did the RAN find crew from one of their recent retiring frigates? The NZ govt wouldn't lease a third frigate because it would cost money, plus politically, the current govt would find it unpallatable, because it would be admitting that two frigates are not enough, and it goes against their party beliefs and would upset their core constituency - ie., they'd lose votes and be turfed out at party candidate selection meetings for the next election.
The RAN ANZAC frigates are currently going through a platform systems upgrade and I'm not sure how far they are through. Most of the crews of the three recently retired Adelaide class frigates have gone to the new Hobart Class DDGs. Like the RNZN, the RAN does have crewing problems in some branches. [/quote] ———————————- The current govt may well not be interested in leasing a third frigate but OTOH with Ron at the helm they may be interested in leasing or second hand purchase. The lack of any frigate, likely until mid next year, means no ability to participate in many peace keeping exercises, drug interdiction, anti piracy and supporting NZ industry with overseas port visits. The political view of NZDF appears to have softened significantly with little negative comment on Poseidon purchase, Hercules replacement, frigate update cost blowout, Edda Fonn purchase, Aotearoa costs etc.. Perhaps there is a growing awareness of the need for increased DF spending. The only opposition from this coalition has been from Green’s Golriz whose ‘preparing for war’ comments didn’t really get a lot of traction. Here is the frigate for Ron to focus on. navaltoday.com/2019/06/07/australian-frigate-hmas-perth-spent-two-years-in-dock-due-to-sailor-shortage/Wishful thinking |
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Post by richard1098 on Aug 22, 2019 19:33:18 GMT 12
We should, but then the decision as made at Cabinet level and that would be too logical for the politicians. Also more seriously it comes from have a two frigate navy and here the rule of threes is very well illustrated. If we had a third frigate we would of always had one available. Secondly because the govt stuffed around so long - politicans kept putting it off, we weren't able to slot one frigate inbetween the RCN Halifax frigate upgrades. Ideally we should've slotted the first ANZAC frigate in before the last Halifax upgrade and then the second ANZAC afterwards.
There are skeleton crews in Canada supporting the upgrades and keeping the ships "alive", plus undergoing training on the new systems there and working with the RCN. I understand that the crew of Te Kaha will be heading back to Canada shortly, if they already haven't gone, to bring the ship back on line and undertake trials etc., and what not before it returns to NZ. The crew of Te Mana will be undergoing training in the simulator here. Isn’t there a RAN Anzac frigate laid up due to lack of crew? Maybe Ron could arrange to lease it for 6 months until our own Anzacs return. Or did the RAN find crew from one of their recent retiring frigates? The NZ govt wouldn't lease a third frigate because it would cost money, plus politically, the current govt would find it unpallatable, because it would be admitting that two frigates are not enough, and it goes against their party beliefs and would upset their core constituency - ie., they'd lose votes and be turfed out at party candidate selection meetings for the next election.
The RAN ANZAC frigates are currently going through a platform systems upgrade and I'm not sure how far they are through. Most of the crews of the three recently retired Adelaide class frigates have gone to the new Hobart Class DDGs. Like the RNZN, the RAN does have crewing problems in some branches. ———————————- The current govt may well not be interested in leasing a third frigate but OTOH with Ron at the helm they may be interested in leasing or second hand purchase. The lack of any frigate, likely until mid next year, means no ability to participate in many peace keeping exercises, drug interdiction, anti piracy and supporting NZ industry with overseas port visits. The political view of NZDF appears to have softened significantly with little negative comment on Poseidon purchase, Hercules replacement, frigate update cost blowout, Edda Fonn purchase, Aotearoa costs etc.. Perhaps there is a growing awareness of the need for increased DF spending. The only opposition from this coalition has been from Green’s Golriz whose ‘preparing for war’ comments didn’t really get a lot of traction. Here is the frigate for Ron to focus on.navaltoday.com/2019/06/07/australian-frigate-hmas-perth-spent-two-years-in-dock-due-to-sailor-shortage/Wishful thinking [/quote] HMAS Perth is currently undergoing the ANZAC Mid-life Capability Assurance Program (AMCAP), a substantial upgrade. It won't be sitting idle for very long. |
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Post by senob on Aug 22, 2019 21:29:45 GMT 12
We should, but then the decision as made at Cabinet level and that would be too logical for the politicians. Also more seriously it comes from have a two frigate navy and here the rule of threes is very well illustrated. If we had a third frigate we would of always had one available. Secondly because the govt stuffed around so long - politicans kept putting it off, we weren't able to slot one frigate inbetween the RCN Halifax frigate upgrades. Ideally we should've slotted the first ANZAC frigate in before the last Halifax upgrade and then the second ANZAC afterwards.
There are skeleton crews in Canada supporting the upgrades and keeping the ships "alive", plus undergoing training on the new systems there and working with the RCN. I understand that the crew of Te Kaha will be heading back to Canada shortly, if they already haven't gone, to bring the ship back on line and undertake trials etc., and what not before it returns to NZ. The crew of Te Mana will be undergoing training in the simulator here. Isn’t there a RAN Anzac frigate laid up due to lack of crew? Maybe Ron could arrange to lease it for 6 months until our own Anzacs return. Or did the RAN find crew from one of their recent retiring frigates? The NZ govt wouldn't lease a third frigate because it would cost money, plus politically, the current govt would find it unpallatable, because it would be admitting that two frigates are not enough, and it goes against their party beliefs and would upset their core constituency - ie., they'd lose votes and be turfed out at party candidate selection meetings for the next election.
The RAN ANZAC frigates are currently going through a platform systems upgrade and I'm not sure how far they are through. Most of the crews of the three recently retired Adelaide class frigates have gone to the new Hobart Class DDGs. Like the RNZN, the RAN does have crewing problems in some branches. The only reason Ron got the Poseidons through was because NZ First hold the balance of power and the $20 billion defence CAPEX was part of the Coalition agreement between Labour and NZ First. They must keep Winston happy to retain control of the Treasury benches. If that wasn't there, we could've kissed the Poseidons goodbye and probably a few other things include Edda Fonn. Aotearoa costs would've been paid because the contract was already signed and the ship under construction. The frigate upgrade blowout can be fairly blamed on the preceding govts continual delay in having the upgrades done, with the costs increasing and not being allowed for. Part of it is also political shenanigans because the blowout could've been covered in other ways. Regarding Gholriz and her comment about preparing for war; she doesn't realise how right she is but not in the way she intends. There is a growing awareness amongst the public about defence, what it does and that new equipment is required. Some even agree that defence funding should be increased, unfortunately the bureaucrats and politicians don't accept that proposition, because they are still very much wedded to the 1980 - 2010 neoliberal austerity principles of reduced govt spending and maximum govt surpluses. I don't advocate wholesale govt borrowing and spending either, because that's what got us into the problems of the 1970s and 1980s, but there must be a happy and practical median between the two opposing viewpoints. MMP is the system we have to work with for better or worse and this time around we have an interesting combination holding the Treasury benches. It remains to be seen if they'll survive their full three year term, but survive they have so far. However they are the ones who are in Cabinet; who set defence policy and who approve defence purchases over $15 million, CDF has approval up to $5 million and Ron up to $15 million (from memory). Cabinet also determines NZDF capabilities and the number of said capabilities. In a nutshell one lot of politicians don't like defence so run it down because of political ideology and the other lot talk it up and say how good it is but run it down because of an economic ideology, so no wonder defence can't win, and NZ govts have a history of being stingy on defence. |
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Post by foxcover on Aug 23, 2019 6:39:19 GMT 12
I don't think this is as embarrassing for New Zealand as it is for Britain, who once had the most powerful Navy in the world and could have easily stopped any such trouble in a heartbeat, but now has depleted it's own military so badly it has to try and bludge help from the poorest of poor relations. Personally I think New Zealand is best to stay well away from that whole Middle East shipping balls up. I do not believe half the rubbish the US government claims is happening there. But if there really are Iranians taking over and boarding oil tankers, then nothing would stop them also capturing a largely undefended Kiwi frigate and then the whole situation would be royally up shit creek. The Air Force would be forced to sink it. Sounds like you’re the one who is embarrassed about your countries lack of a navy most Dave. How much NZ oil passes through there? Quite a bit probably, but you say you should ‘keep well away’, even if one frigate was online it wouldn’t be sent anyway so it’s a pointless thread. |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Aug 23, 2019 7:54:02 GMT 12
Perhaps the Government is in discussion with Team NZ for lease of fast winged monohull reconnaissance boats to patrol the straits.
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