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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 8, 2020 16:27:20 GMT 12
Thanks - I have found the article now.
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Post by davidd on Apr 8, 2020 17:13:48 GMT 12
Ah, jolly good! I see that my memory of the article was not entirely accurate regarding the blue grey paint application, but still think he is still referring to the same paint. Unfortunately I don't think that Corsairs and Venturas were ever painted with this paint, but I could be wrong! David D
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Post by planewriting on Apr 8, 2020 18:02:02 GMT 12
I got the journal out and scanned it in entirety. My scanner played up in the process so please excuse any typos.
A FIGHTER AT THE FRONT GATE.
RE Montgomery
You can get quite a surprise if you look up and see an aircraft parked on the street outside your house -even if there is only the fuselage, some tailplanes and some odd fittings; and even if it looks as though it has been out in the open air for 20 years (which it has), and will never take to the air again.
I did just that one Saturday afternoon in June, it was the usual programme for me - records and model aircraft. I had spent most of my time applying the upper surface camouflage to a Boston bomber and had enjoyed several records as background music. The light had begun to fade by about 4 pm and I had finished with the colour I was using, and decided to wash the brushes. I would return to the job but would need the light one, and I would have time to finish it before "Thunderbirds". But this was not to be for on my way back to my room I heard something pull up at the front gate. I took no notice and carried on but was soon arrested by the amazement I could hear outside. "Well, I'll be ......! I thought Robert would like a look at this lot" "What on earth have you got there, John?" I needed no calling - a scramble like that would have done justice to any wartime fighter unit. The fuselage, or what was left of it, was sitting was sitting on an extending trailer, with sundry tailplanes, fins, rudders etc wedged in from either side. Over the forward part of the fuselage and cockpit was a lower cowl this enclosed the engine and radiators on P-40s and the whole thing, like a scene from “Steptoe and Son”, was set off perfectly by a rag mat, old and weathered like the stuff it covered.
John Smith, of Mapua, Nelson, owner of Mosquito NZ2336, P-51D NZ2423 and P-40N NZ2330, was on his way home after having spent a fortnight in the North Island. He took delivery of this Kittyhawk, NZ3043, at Hamilton. This was one of the last four P-40s remaining of the original 118 aircraft of this type placed in open storage at Rukuhia aerodrome at the end of the Second World War but John says that all have now gone to the melting pot. John could not bring the entire aircraft, or rather one should say, all the existing components down in one trip due to the limitations imposed by his trailer, so he will return later to Rukuhia, where the wings and some other fittings remain at present.
As we stood looking at the Kittyhawk, a car stopped in a very surprised way. "3048?"asked its driver. No, 3043" replied John. At this, the car sped off to return a few minutes later with a wartime air force pilot's log book on the front seat beside the driver. We found that we were talking to Mr M E Williams, a pilot with SAFE and a fighter pilot during the war, who now lives in Blenheim. A glance at his logbook showed that he had in fact flown NZ3043 in May 1943 as a pilot with No 17 Squadron, then based at Seagrove, South Auckland. Mr Willlams had flown NZ3043 but twice, both on the same day. The Squadron was based at Seagrove for operational training and also for home defence prior to its going up to the Pacific. Mr Williams was most interested to see the aircraft, as we were able to meet him. "I don't remember the aircraft before that time, and never saw it again after that day. I never thought I would see it again", he said.
John hopes to restore NZ3043 along with the others he owns. He may have to make parts for both this aircraft and NZ3220 - one of the three named "Gloria Lyons" (see May 1965 and December 1966 journals) but is confident that each aircraft will be in one piece again one day.
The Kittyhawk itself was a Curtiss P-40E-1C known in the RAF as the Kittyhawk lA and serialled EV156. It was built at Buffalo and was delivered in NZ in 1942 after having been diverted from Middle East requirements. It was brought on charge by the RNZAF on 16 September 1942 and was delivered from the USA in US-made paints - dark green/dark earth camouflage.the upper surfaces and sky type S under surfaces with RAF roundels with the individual rings of equal proportions. On arrival it was given its serial NZ3043 and the wing and fuselage roundels were modified by narrowing the white and yellow areas. On joining No.14 Squadron the code HQ-F was applied to the fuselage in what appears to be 36" lettering, the colour being BALM-made Sky Grey.
Upon its joining No 17 Squadron, this lettering was apparently painted over in brown and green paint to conform to the fuselage camouflage. I do not think that this Kittvhawk went overseas, so the blue centres, white striping etc. was not used. After service with No 17 Squadron NZ3043 appears to have gone to No 2 FOTU Ohakea where the codes FE-B were applied, again in Sky Grey. The lower edge of this code was on a line with the original code but the top of the FE letters was about 12 inches lower. Some time after this the aircraft was liberally splotched with zino-chromate paint presumably over worn areas, prior to its repaint of medium blue upper surfaces. This was the colour used on Venturas, Corsairs, Avengers and certain other types repainted in this country. The under surfaces became sky grey, roundels and codes were unaltered although the serials were repositioned a little lower and larger on the rear fuselage. I think that the panelling within the glazed cutouts just aft of the cockpit was left in the original dark earth/dark green. Repainting this would have been a fairly big job, the removal of the glazed side panels being no mean task in itself.
All the above could be seen from parts of the aircraft not covered by a thick khaki-coloured lichen which covers the Kittyhawk almost entirely on one side. The port side is relatively clean although the paint had suffered from 20 years' exposure to the elements. 1 could not record this interesting interlude on film because of the falling light, but I hope that this description may do justice to what must be a unique experience - glance up and see a fighter' at the front gate! (We must hope to get a further progress report on this aircraft's restoration. Ed.)
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davem2
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 97
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Post by davem2 on Apr 8, 2020 19:31:27 GMT 12
Anyone got the journals relating to 3220 mentioned in this article?
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chook
Flying Officer
Posts: 63
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Post by chook on Apr 8, 2020 21:46:08 GMT 12
May be a typo but M E Willams referred to above may likely be F/O D A William's who flew with SAFE for many years and lived in Blenheim. Appears in Air to Air and Kittyhawks & Coconuts.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 8, 2020 22:22:36 GMT 12
liberally splotched with zino-chromate paint That would be zinc chromate, rather than zino, which the scanne has misread. prior to its repaint of medium blue upper surfaces. This was the colour used on Venturas, Corsairs, Avengers and certain other types repainted in this country. So is Robert saying that Venturas and Avengers were repainted in the NZ Sea Blue Grey colour? Or that the P-40 was repainted in Non-Specular Intermediate Blue?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 8, 2020 22:25:08 GMT 12
Thanks for scanning and pasting the article Peter.
You're right Chook, Donald Alfred Williams was at Seagrove with No. 17 Squadron so it must have been him, surely.
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Post by denysjones on Apr 9, 2020 9:07:51 GMT 12
Dave M2,
Yep I have, the two articles are not in reference to the a/c 3220 specifically but rather tell the story of the naming, and the origin of the name, of the the various ones that actually carried it.
hth
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 9, 2020 9:26:13 GMT 12
Are there any/many articles on or photos of the Rukuhia graveyard in those old 1960's and 1970's journals? Are there any articles about John Chambers recovering the two P-40's that he saved? Or anything on the Venturas and other types being buried in the gully that was covered in when the airport was extended 1964-66?
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davem2
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 97
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Post by davem2 on Apr 9, 2020 10:52:47 GMT 12
Hi Denys
OK, thanks for checking, I guess they are based on the newspaper reports at the time which Dave H has posted previously.
cheers Dave
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Post by davidd on Apr 9, 2020 11:26:56 GMT 12
Totally agree with chook and Dave H, Donald Alfred Williams has to be the man who arrived in his car "in a very surprised way". There was no other man by name of Williams in RNZAF who flew Kittyhawks with 17 Sqdn at Seagrove - in fact Don completed all three of the early Pacific tours of this squadron. David D
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Post by davidd on Apr 9, 2020 11:30:02 GMT 12
liberally splotched with zino-chromate paint That would be zinc chromate, rather than zino, which the scanne has misread. prior to its repaint of medium blue upper surfaces. This was the colour used on Venturas, Corsairs, Avengers and certain other types repainted in this country. So is Robert saying that Venturas and Avengers were repainted in the NZ Sea Blue Grey colour? Or that the P-40 was repainted in Non-Specular Intermediate Blue? Dave, Having pondered further on my stated belief that the "Blue Sea Grey" paint (33B/N118) was NOT used on RNZAF Venturas, Corsairs and Avengers in NZ, I have to admit that they quite probably were, although evidence for the Corsair repaints is not evident in any documentation I have come across. However lack of documentation is not any sort of proof that something did or did not happen. Thinking harder, I realized that I had already accepted that a good proportion of the TBFS, on return to NZ at beginning of August 1944 (plus the other TBFs which never went overseas) were converted to drogue towers at Rukuhia over period July to about December 1944 (possibly some also delivered in early 1945, wish I had gone to the trouble of tabulating individual histories for all these aircraft). About 20 aircraft were converted as drogue towers in all, and many of them were later transferred to the Royal Navy (Fleet Air Arm) in Australia in September 1945, including NZ2522, which was photographed being hoisted aboard the RN "Woolworths" light aircraft carrier at Auckland early in that month. Like many of these aircraft, it certainly appears to be in a "repaint" scheme (definitely not in factory US Navy scheme) with the aft fuselage and tail surfaces painted all yellow to signify it new work description. It is almost certain that these aircraft had the 33B/N118 paint on all side & upper surfaces, apart from aforementioned tail group. As to the PV-1 Venturas, well there were a few strange and undocumented schemes applied to this type, including quite a few of the aircraft with 10 SU at Piva Uncle (Bougainville) in mid-1944, such as NZ4535, 4503, etc, with a very dark colour used on all upper and side surfaces, also some with a lighter colour, but definitely NOT in the original factory scheme. Most of these aircraft were returned to NZ between July and September, and were soon re-allotted to either 1 BOTU, or 4 Sqdn (13 SU) in Fiji. Then there was a group of later aircraft on strength of Whenuapai (14 SU) also in mid-1944 (serial numbers in 4550s, 4560s, etc) , which definitely had a repaint scheme, but not as dark as some of the ones at Piva North. These may well have received a coat of 33B/N118 applied to all side/upper surfaces, although as they were almost brand new I have never understood why they needed a fresh coat at this stage. However they did look smart. Finally Corsairs. By the end of the war, there were some very faded examples of Corsairs in service with the SU's at the forward Pacific bases, including many in some strange colour schemes which were obviously repaints. Most of the later F4U-1Ds had the later overall "Sea Blue" factory scheme, which was actually glossy for the most part, but these also got to be somewhat scruffy (remembering that all these aircraft lived outside all the time - no hangars for them.) Aircraft on active duty which are left permanently outside do tend to fade and lose their gloss, so sometimes it is hard to distinguish (in photographs and sometimes even "in the flesh") aircraft in their factory schemes from those in possible repaint schemes - the RNZAF certainly did not seem to bother repainting aircraft according to their original factory scheme, and one suspects that they simply pleased themselves and used any paints available. I gather that the Engineer Officer in charge of each mini-fleet of aircraft could have a lot to do with how "his" aircraft were painted (although I am equally certain that some did not take any great interest in this aspect of their duties, and just left the painting to the "experts". Of course if there were any special theatre tactical markings, then these had to be observed, but it is still possible to work out the "ownership" of any particular aircraft in photograph so long as there are enough clues to provide a fighting chance. Corsairs in NZ (which are really the ones in question here) seem to have been left for the most part in their factory schemes for a good while, but by 1945 I am fairly certain that some repainting was going on at Ardmore and later at Ohakea. In these cases, 33B/N118 could well have been used. However use of this paint in the Pacific's operational theatres was highly unlikely, as supplies of standard American paints were always to hand, but still possible that NZ-manufactured identification colours (which the NZ taxpayer had funded) were used for roundels and fin-flashes. The NZ Treasury was always keen that if NZ could supply certain materials that were suitable, then they should be used to keep down expenditure. However what they thought and what the spray painters on the job thought of any particular paint and its qualities might have resulted in a different outcome. David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 9, 2020 13:06:21 GMT 12
Thanks David. One point regarding the Corsairs and other aircraft that only flew within New Zealand is that they were not being subjected to coral strips and therefore I presume they were not being regularly washed down with petrol to remove the coral dust as happened in the Pacific islands with coral airstrips. So realistically a Corsair that arrived n July 1944 in factory fresh paint and spent its days at Ardmore or Ohakea was only really subjected to flying, to rain and to sunshine, so by September 1945 the factory applied paint was only really a year and a bit old and should theoretically still have been in pretty good condition. They were not hangared unless under maintenance but New Zealand conditions lacked the harshness of the Pacific. So I wonder if most of those resprayed were ones that had returned to New Zealand from Pacific operations.
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Post by denysjones on Apr 9, 2020 13:46:17 GMT 12
Dave, Re your query about the early AHS journals and Rukuhia the short answer is maybe but who knows.
The journals are vast repository of info but lack a search facility in modern parlance. To my knowledge only two indices were produced on articles. One was for Vol 1-5 and the other 6-10 but the second is weaker in depth and former. That first one lists references per aircraft type and rege/serial and also article titles. The second only goes to a list of article titles and one for article subject.
There was then an illustrations index for Vol 1-11 and it's dominated by civil stuff for example there are only 4 entries for P40's.
I left the society around 1981 so can't comment if anything came out thereafter.
A great project for some determined persons!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 9, 2020 13:54:33 GMT 12
Thanks Denys.
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Post by errolmartyn on Apr 9, 2020 15:36:32 GMT 12
Dave, Re your query about the early AHS journals and Rukuhia the short answer is maybe but who knows. The journals are vast repository of info but lack a search facility in modern parlance. To my knowledge only two indices were produced on articles. One was for Vol 1-5 and the other 6-10 but the second is weaker in depth and former. That first one lists references per aircraft type and rege/serial and also article titles. The second only goes to a list of article titles and one for article subject. There was then an illustrations index for Vol 1-11 and it's dominated by civil stuff for example there are only 4 entries for P40's. I left the society around 1981 so can't comment if anything came out thereafter. A great project for some determined persons! M J Poletti compiled an AJSNZ Journal article index covering 1958 - 1989 except for 1982 which was published post-1989. I have scanned this as a pdf. I'm happy to copy to anyone upon receipt of an email request. Errol
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Post by Dave Homewood on Apr 9, 2020 16:07:45 GMT 12
Yes please Errol! dave_daasnz@hotmail.com
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Post by camtech on Apr 9, 2020 16:43:44 GMT 12
Yes please Errol.
lesbillcliff@xtra.co.nz
I believe some work has been done to compile a complete index for the journals. I'm slowly compiling one for my own use, working backwards.
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Post by Peter Lewis on Apr 9, 2020 20:13:27 GMT 12
I have a recollection of a 'special publication' being issued by AHS (Darby?) being a listing of all the airframes then on-site at the time it was compiled - early-to-mid-60s perhaps. Doubtless I have my copy stashed away somewhere.
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Post by shorty on Apr 9, 2020 21:54:11 GMT 12
Re Corsair repaints. Shortly before he died my Dad (a airframe rigger) told me that after he came back from the islands (where he was with 10SU) he spent some time at Ardmore painting Corsairs
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