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Post by baz62 on May 6, 2020 13:59:28 GMT 12
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Post by baronbeeza on May 6, 2020 14:38:58 GMT 12
The Air Force Museum uploaded some photos of Harvard NZ1083 on display in the Square in Christchurch in the 1980s (86?). Got a link to that Baz ?
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 6, 2020 16:01:13 GMT 12
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Post by planecrazy on May 6, 2020 18:00:03 GMT 12
Great set of pic's, some of these pic's are in Christchurch and Gloria Lyons was in Christchurch Public Hospital, wonder if Gloria Lyons the person got the meet Gloria Lyons the aeroplane?
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 7, 2020 0:12:16 GMT 12
She was meant to attend that event, but sadly at the last minute it did not happen.
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Post by baronbeeza on May 7, 2020 7:04:25 GMT 12
I found some pics of the 1986 effort.
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Post by davidd on May 7, 2020 13:19:10 GMT 12
I believe reason that Gloria (apparently, according to newspaper account, and they would love this stuff!) never saw "Her" aircraft was that very heavy rain intervened, and she could not make it. However I like to believe that they managed to sneak her in the next morning before the aircraft was dragged off back to Wigram. I think it was towed or trucked in sideways through the streets, in the wee small hours of the morning. Guess who got the job of delivering this aircraft down from Ohakea (and presumably home again?) From his logbook, it was one F/L I R (Ian) McKenzie, of No. 15 Squadron's originals. David D
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Post by baz62 on May 7, 2020 15:02:48 GMT 12
I found some pics of the 1986 effort. Yes the Museum's Facebook page had the photos of 1083 along with the P40. Link for those who FB: link
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Post by baronbeeza on May 7, 2020 15:17:47 GMT 12
I found some pics of the 1986 effort. Yes the Museum's Facebook page had the photos of 1083 along with the P40. Link for those who FB: linkOne of the Air Force pics shows another photographer working away at the nose of the Harvard. I think he was the 'Star' photographer that has some of his work on some websites as well. I will post about a dozen pics on a separate thread of the various displays in the square. I am sure there have been many over the years. ***EDIT*** Other thread rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/28557/harvard-force-displays-cathedral-square
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Post by davidd on May 7, 2020 19:01:43 GMT 12
I think even our one and only Messerschmitt 109 was there sometime during the war (or am I getting mixed up with the Great War Albatros?) David D
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Post by Peter Lewis on May 7, 2020 19:40:54 GMT 12
The 109 was displayed at a War Bonds Drive in Wellington, and then went to the TTS Nelson. I have noted that it arrived in Christchurch in July 1945 - presumably well after the public display mentioned?
The Albatross C.VII ex Christchurch Museum was displayed in the Square, Christchurch, 7Jul43. This sound are far more likely time to match the P-40 event.
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Post by baronbeeza on May 7, 2020 20:41:33 GMT 12
The 109 was displayed at a War Bonds Drive in Wellington, and then went to the TTS Nelson. I have noted that it arrived in Christchurch in July 1945 - presumably well after the public display mentioned? The Albatross C.VII ex Christchurch Museum was displayed in the Square, Christchurch, 7Jul43. This sound are far more likely time to match the P-40 event. Even though one hardy soul is wearing shorts the shadows look like winter-time in ChCh.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 7, 2020 21:47:09 GMT 12
It was the display in Cathedral Square that sadly sealed the Albatros's doom, because after the Air Force had borrowed it for the Bonds drive, the idiots at Canterbury Museum told the RNZAF they did not want it back. So it was taken to Harewood and sat in the bck of one of the hangars there for some months till some jumped up Flight Sergeant ordered so Erks to dispose of that rubbish out of his hangar, so they dug a hole in the airfield and buried it.
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Post by denysjones on May 8, 2020 9:31:11 GMT 12
Taking Peter's date of Jul43 for the Albatros to have been in the square then it can't be the same time as NZ3220, as according to adf-serials she wasn't in NZ at that time, being assembled in Nov43.
Also the fate of the Albatros has traditionally been stated as it having been taken to the site of the old CCC incinerator (where the Centennial Pool was and now the Margaret Mahy playground) and burned. I've often wondered if any photo exists of it in Cathedral Sq. Thinking a bit about it perhaps the wings went to the incinerator and the fuselage went to Harewood, or perhaps the source of the burying bit is confusing it with the 109 which was buried at Wigram?
David, as for the 109 again I've not seen a photo of it in the Square but I do have one of it on display at the Industries Fair so I wonder if peoples' memories have merged events and shifted locations? I am aware that Snow Fenn produced a pretty much definitive article on the 109 for AHS Journal after I'd left the AHS so perhaps someone (Peter Layne perhaps) could dig it out and post here?
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Post by davidd on May 8, 2020 10:51:11 GMT 12
Yes, as the one who started this confusion, I would agree with Denys that the 109 was definitely displayed at the Industries Fair at Addington in 1945, I have seen a photo of it there, although don't think they bothered to put the wings on then. I think the "Fair" had a different name then - was it the "Winter Show" or somesuch?- it was definitely in the papers. The last that was seen of the Albatros was at Harewood (minus engine), and its mouldering remains were still there in the long grass when they started preparations for laying the first proper runway there for the planes international airport in 1950. It was recognised then and there by the late Bob Entwistle, who also remembered it from its days at the Canterbury Museum in the 1930s. David D
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 8, 2020 11:21:55 GMT 12
14 Sep 1944 Ian McKenzie flew NZ3220 from Ohakea to Harewood,
18 Sep 1944 NZ3220 was towed into the centre of Christchurch to go on display in Cathedral Square for Air Force Week, which was part of a Victory Loan drive. The plan to bring Gloria Lyons herself by ambulance from Christchurch Hospital to see the aeroplane was scuppered on the Monday due to rain, and they'd hoped to bring her later in the week but it did not happen.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 8, 2020 11:23:28 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 8, 2020 11:31:12 GMT 12
VICTORY WAR LOAN
CHRISTCHURCH DISTRICT
WARHAWK FIGHTER IN CATHEDRAL SQUARE
A big crowd gathered in Cathedral square during the lunch hour to see Miss Gloria Lyons, a patient from the Christchurch Hospital, visit the Warhawk fighter which bears her name; but because of the bad weather it was not possible for her to attend. It is hoped to arrange the function on the first fine day at the same time. The Warhawk fighter ‘‘Gloria Lyons" in the Square bears rising sun insignia to show that it has shot down two and a half Japanese aircraft, while bomb insignia show that it has made 57 raids in the Pacific.
The fighter was an example of why war loans are necessary, said Mr J. L. Hay, chairman of the National Savings Committee. The machine and its crew had done their share in protecting New Zealand. Gloria Lyons, too, although a cripple, had done her part by writing to the airmen, who had later named their fighter in her honour. The public was asked to lend money which would return good interest in a few years. Mr Hay mentioned that a family savings day would be held later in the campaign, when all homes would be canvassed on, a Saturday.Drapery firms had arranged to close so that their staffs could help in the effort, which was being organised by the Junior Chamber of Commerce.
A formation of more than 30 aircraft flew over the city yesterday, and an Air Force concert party and band performed in the Square to open Air Force week. Contributions in the Christchurch area yesterday amounted to £35,989; but the District War Loan Committee at a meeting held yesterday expressed disappointment at the slowness with which contributions were coming in from purchasers of stock. To reach the number of buyers of stock who contributed to the Third Liberty Loan 60,000 persons were needed to purchase stock in value from £100 to £1000. The committee urged the transfer from the Savings Bank to the War Loan, and for this purpose special forms were available at the Victory Loan office in Cathedral square.
Subscriptions up to Saturday at midday, with quotas in parenthesis, were: Christchurch. £797,503 (£3,170,090); Akaroa, £7720 (£25,412); Amberley, £3355 (£21,533); Ashburton districts. £50,408 (£383,170); Cheviot, £9722 (£23,686); Culverden. £5538 (£ 12,768): Cust 1018 (£6371); Barfield,' £7035 (£22,563); Dunsandel, £2001 (£10,193); Duvauchelle. £466 (£3896); Hanmer Springs, £3043 (£10,344); Hawarden, £4069 (£24.536); Hororata, £5199 (£14,741); Kaiapoi, £7103 (£58,707): Kaikoura. £8826 (£38.745): Kirwee, £778 (£4000); Leeston-Southbridge, £9277 (£49,745); Lincoln. £3748 (£9818); Little River. £6133 (£14,515): Lyttelton, £14,293 (£58,070); Oxford. £2653 (£25,004); Rangiora, £17,284 (£101,000); Sefton. £ISBB (£7644); Sheffield. £1843 (£10,617): Tai Tapu. £725 (£6640); Waiau, £7878 (£13,617); Waikari, £9775 (£17,768).
PRESS, 19 SEPTEMBER 1944
And as mentioned before the markings they mention denoting kills and raids are spurious n do not reflect what the aircraft itself did. it never saw any air to air combat and flew a lot less bombing missions than is credited. The markings must surely relate to an individual who had been allocated the aircraft.
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Post by davidd on May 8, 2020 12:30:16 GMT 12
Dave, pretty certain Kittyhawks were not allotted to specific pilots by this late stage, in fact this practice was tried from time to time, but never worked out due to fact that matching one individual aircraft with one pilot was impossible anyway (18 aircraft, 27 pilots for fighters), and matching aircraft availability with pilot/crew availability was a thankless task. It did happen (with the Avenger and Dauntless squadrons for instance, for their one and only tours of 8 weeks), and I am aware it was observed by our Catalina squadrons from time to time, also the first Hudsons at Guadalcanal were matched up with specific crews, but these concepts usually fell over as you can see when you read the respective ORBs. Was also tried with fighters from time to time, including a period right at end of war with Corsairs (may even have been tried by 14 Squadron in Japan too), but these usually fizzled out due to the usual difficulties. Unless anybody can prove that the Gloria Lyons P-40s was allotted to a particular individual, this aircraft may forever be considered a bit of a mystery. One thing I had heard was that Gloria herself got very upset when she heard (at the hospital) that another of "her" aircraft had been lost (and she seemed to think this meant that the pilot had been lost too), even when it was explained that "another aircraft had been painted up to replace it." I wonder if they ever told her about the Corsair, which also had a rather brief flying life at the front line? Perhaps not. Similar things may have been felt about the "named" Spitfires with 485 Squadron - the average civilian earlier in WW2 probably had no idea how short were the lives of fighting aircraft, although by the end of the war they might have been self-educated into a more realistic understanding of these things. Also little realised is that, unlike the case with most bomber aircraft (and particularly USAAF bombers), many aircraft "names" were not initiated by aircrew, but by the technical personnel who maintained them. A classic RNZAF case is the Wairarapa Wildcat, which started out being decorated with twin pussy cats after it was repaired by the USAAF technicians at Tontouta (New Caledonia) in about April 1943, then when it was nominally accepted by Fisken as "his own" at Kukum (Guadalcanal), it acquired the name of his home district.
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Post by Dave Homewood on May 8, 2020 13:56:44 GMT 12
You're absolutely correct that the fighters at that stage were not allocated with a specific fighter matched to a specific pilot for operations, and although there were periods where a pilot flew the same aircraft repeatedly for a week or two or even more in some rare occasions on operational strikes, patrols and escorts, most of the time they did fly different aircraft from one day to the next, as you say.
However pilots, and in the case of crews for bombers or transports, were I believe allocated responsibility for a specific aircraft in the Servicing Unit for such tasks as when it needed a compass swing, or ferry flight, or if they were available a test flight. I know that often an aircraft that was trying to be rectified of some problem or other would often be flown by several pilots to diagnose the issues, but there was certainly an allocation of a pilot/crew to an aircraft for the non-operational things like this. I have seen the allocation list of Venturas for a squadron in 1944. So the crews flew a multitude of Venturas on their tour, but they had 'their' aircraft. And this is why a lot of them put their own nose art and bomb markings on them I guess.
It could well be the case with NZ3220. Everyone was flying it but it was allocated on paper to one pilot who put his score on the side.
Look at Geoff Fisken with NZ3072. That aircraft was allocated to him in the same way by Stan Quill. He added the name Wairarapa Wildcat, which his wife had suggested to him. And he added his kill markings. But he only ever flew that aircraft nine times, and only once in combat. His other kills he got in Buffalo W8147 and P-40 NZ3060, etc, were however painted onto NZ3072.
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