RNZAF 4 OTU Propeller Nose Cone Colour Query

[alanw]

Hi All,

I trust you are all doing well (or as well as can be) during this

time in Lockdown?

Since I saw the posts on John Smith's P40's, I decided to do
a P40M I have, as one redone in NZ Foliage Green/NZ Sky Grey, seeing
how NZ3220 was painted, got the modelling juices going.

There is a photo in Darby's "RNZAF The First Decade" on page 76
of NZ3072 (Wairarapa Wildcat) after return to New Zealand, and being
re-painted in NZ Foliage Green/NZ Sky Grey with 4 OTU.

The only item I haven't been able to reconcile, is the Propeller Nose
cone colour?
From memory from past readings on the Forums, I believe it is Red?
Tried to Search the Forum boards but was not successful.

Can our Forum Knowledge Trust please confirm or steer me in the
right direction of the correct colour?

Edit - another quick question I'm sure the White tail paint is both
upper and lower Stabilizers?

Thanks

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

As a general rule, 4 OTU had red spinners, red codes and red tail stripes on the white tail.

2 OTU had white spinners, sky codes and no stripes on the tail.

[Dave Homewood]

Yes the white was underneath the horizontal stabilisers too.

[alanw]

Apr 23, 2020 13:27:08 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

As a general rule, 4 OTU had red spinners, red codes and red tail stripes on the white tail.

2 OTU had white spinners, sky codes and no stripes on the tail.

Hi Dave- Thank you - Per normal you're a Legend

Thank you for the Info on the white tails too.

I note your comment on the Red Codes, it's interesting that NZ3072
in the photo doesn't show any codes. Any ideas as to why that might be?
(If I don't have to paint them that's good too )

Edit - I assume you're referring to the Code letters on the Fuselage,
I see that the Code "072" is on the cowling, I at first assumed them white, but could they also be Red?

Thanks

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

Yes the OD- codes (red) and FE- codes where sky.

That photo of NZ3072 was possibly taken when No. 4 OTU was still at Ardmore and there was not the need to differentiate between units. It later had OD-17 applied to it.

[Dave Homewood]

The cowl numbers were just the last three numbers of the serial, a marking adopted across the board for all the P-40's at some point in 1944, probably to make it easy to find the particular aircraft when driving/walking/cycling along the flightline as the serial was usually under the tail in the shade.

[davidd]

Ye, definitely the red spinners were adopted when 4 OTU was moved to Ohakea in early July 1944, to differentiate them from 2 OTU's aircraft at a distance. Of course the code letters differentiated them too, but the spinners were more obvious. My source for this information was a (now deceased) pilot by name of I R (Ian) McKenzie, who completed the first course with the Fighter Gunnery School at Gisborne in May 1944, and was then posted to Ohakea with (I think) No. 2 OTU as an aerial gunnery specialist. He remained with the OTU until May 1945, when he was tfd to the Reserve as a Flight Lieutenant. He told me that the "colour photograph" in the first edition of the little booklet I had helped produce with "the three Ross's" (Macpherson, Ewing and Dunlop) was in error, in that the spinner was shown as red, whereas it was a 2 OTU aircraft so should have had a white spinner. I told him that somebody had "colourised" the original B$W photo and thought red looked better! Ian was a fine old gent, and a retired beef farmer when I knew him, up at Scargill (North Canterbury). Ian also had the dubious distinction of being the only RNZAF P-40 pilot to shoot down another P-40 pilot in (I think it was May) 1944, whilst at the gunnery course. This was after his aircraft had been (mistakenly) loaded with live ammunition for a gunnery exercise (attacks from the side, known as deflection shooting). He only got off about 5 or 6 shells before he realized that this should not be happening, but most of them hit the "target" aircraft in the aft fuselage, puncturing the hydraulic reservoir, which resulted in a wheels up landing back at Gisborne. Poor old Ian! His victim was S/L R M NcKay, CO of the School, who later flew Meteors in UK with 616 Sqdn, and retired as the "Black Rod" in Parliament. He forgave Ian, but hugely enjoyed telling everybody who cared to listen of this particular incident, but fortunately did not usually mention name of the unlucky pilot.
Incidentally there are several documents in RNZAF files on WW2 colour schemes and special markings which happen to verify the story of the change in markings on Ohakea aircraft after the transfer of the FGS aircraft from Gisborne.
David D

[Dave Homewood]

I have come across couple of aircraft that were on one of the OTU's and they transferred to the other, and then returned within a month or so to their original OTU.

One of them is Bevan Dewes' Harvard NZ1044 which was on No. 2 OTU from October 1943 till at least the end of January 1944, but it turned up on No. 4 OTU in late March 44 and the first week of April 1944, and then by the 28th of April 1944 it was back with No. 2 OTU. I wonder if the codes would have been altered and then put back. I don't know if it was intended as a temporary loan while 4 OTU had a shortage, or what the story was.

[alanw]

Hi Dave and David

Thank you so much for that information.

So if going by the the premise, that 4 OTU was at Ardmore, and the
Red Spinner and Codes were not adopted till Ohakea, I wonder
what colour the spinner was at Ardmore?

I guess there is the other possibility, that the Photo on page 76 of "RNZAF
The First Decade", could have been taken after arrival at Ohakea, (Spinner looks
dark enough for a Red, and it has the Red Tail stripes) prior to addition of
Red Codes OD-17?

Thanks

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

Most of the spinners at Ardmore would have been Olive Drab, if they'd never been overseas (and most of those P-40's had only served at Fairhall before they move to Ardmore in December 1943 to form No. 4 OTU), OR white spinners if they had returned from the Pacific.

- some of the Ardmore 4 OTU aircraft were olive drab all over
- some had just a white tail
- some had white tails and spinners
- some had white tails, spinner and operational stripes.

They were quite a mishmash.

Theee were also some mysterious ones with white noses and tails with dark (black or red?) spinners but we do not know if they were part of the OUT. See here:
rnzaf.proboards.com/thread/27307/white-noses-on-ardmore-40s

[alanw]

Hi Dave,

Thank you again for the awesome information.

Since reading your last post, it occurred to me that the
photo of NZ3072 in "RNZAF The First Decade", may have been
already at 4 OTU Ohakea, but perhaps the War Time Censor had
Removed/Blotted out the Red Codes (just a thought)

Might need to re-think adding them on.

Might sound a silly question, by chance do you know what
the code measurements would be?
I have some for a RNZAF Hudson, but they seem a little big
for a Fighter Aircraft measurement wise

Thanks

Alan

[Dave Homewood]

No I do not know the measurements. You can probably work it out, or David Duxbury or Barf Bosher may have a more precise idea.

I am pretty sure that NZ3072 is known to have had codes because it w wearing them at Rukuhia.

[alanw]

Apr 24, 2020 10:36:12 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

No I do not know the measurements. You can probably work it out, or David Duxbury or Barf Bosher may have a more precise idea.

I am pretty sure that NZ3072 is known to have had codes because it w wearing them at Rukuhia.

Hi Dave - Thanks for that, your comments reminded
me that I have a photo of NZ3082 OD-19 at Rukuhia.

The interesting thing is, that the Codes don't appear to follow
conventional lettering so that can come in handy

Also, I note that on NZ3082, some of the Red has worn off the nose cone,
exposing the white underneath, along with the red on the tail planes
showing the white underneath also

Regards

Alan