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Post by davidd on Mar 17, 2023 16:07:59 GMT 12
There is also a very similar photo to the Hudson roundel being sprayed on (above) in the original RNZAF official photographs, except that the subject is one of the earlier Catalinas (PBY-5s), presumed taken at Fiji (Laucala Bay) in 1943 I think.
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Post by davidd on Mar 17, 2023 16:12:15 GMT 12
On page 34 of this thread, dated 10th March, 5th post from top, where a previous poster was named as David Duxford" - I fear that was me (as some may have guessed)!
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Post by Antonio on Mar 17, 2023 23:14:49 GMT 12
There is also a very similar photo to the Hudson roundel being sprayed on (above) in the original RNZAF official photographs, except that the subject is one of the earlier Catalinas (PBY-5s), presumed taken at Fiji (Laucala Bay) in 1943 I think. PR2432RNZAF airman spray paints over the remnants of the United States national insignia on a Catalina. RNZAF Station Lauthala Bay, Fiji.Interesting that the roundel is not directly over the Star
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Post by baz62 on Mar 18, 2023 9:31:42 GMT 12
I woner why they didnt use the US roundel position? Orderes specified another psosition? Seems very close to the US position if that was the reason!
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2023 9:55:52 GMT 12
I have also always wondered why he did not white out the US marking first before applying the RNZAF roundel. It is not as if he was using it as a placement reference.
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2023 10:10:24 GMT 12
and no standard colour scheme that we know of..... These latter aircraft were the ones painted overall yellow, by order of the local (American!) air commander. At least one of the Utility Flight Hudsons had yellow and black stripes, like the commonly seen target tug scheme. My Dad old me years ago he saw it come into Ardmore occasionally and it looked to him like a big bumblebee. I looked for years for a photo of that scheme, and then eventually one turned up here. Now I am not sure where that photo is. Was the all yellow photo you mention one of Marcus Bridle's shots?
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Post by baz62 on Mar 18, 2023 11:01:03 GMT 12
and no standard colour scheme that we know of..... These latter aircraft were the ones painted overall yellow, by order of the local (American!) air commander. At least one of the Utility Flight Hudsons had yellow and black stripes, like the commonly seen target tug scheme. My Dad old me years ago he saw it come into Ardmore occasionally and it looked to him like a big bumblebee. I looked for years for a photo of that scheme, and then eventually one turned up here. Now I am not sure where that photo is. Was the all yellow photo you mention one of Marcus Bridle's shots? Holy cow the Avengers looked garish enough with black and yellow stripes but a Hudson would certainly stand out!! Hope the photo turns up.
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Post by Antonio on Mar 18, 2023 11:04:55 GMT 12
Slightly off track but there was a photo taken (at Ohakea?) of a TAF Mustang with a tradesman hand-painting the roundel on the port wing. I am collecting photos of RNZAF aircraft being painted and I'm wondering if any forumites can help me with this one? So far I have drawn a blank at the AFMoNZ site
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2023 11:16:59 GMT 12
That Mustang photo you refer to was taken at Ardmore and the tradesman was Bill Fitzharding-Jones. He was one of the first batch of personnel trained in the new trade of Safety And Surface in 1949,and the photo was taken in 1951 from memory when he was in a small team posted to Ardmore to take the P-51D's out of storage and ready them for service.
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Post by Antonio on Mar 18, 2023 11:22:05 GMT 12
Thanks Dave, Was that an RNZAF Official photo?
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Post by davidd on Mar 18, 2023 11:49:32 GMT 12
Never heard of a "bumble bee" painted Hudson Dave, and certainly not with the Utility Flight at Guadalcanal. The Utility Flight was ordered (by the American theatre commander) to paint these aircraft in an overall yellow scheme (he was not interested in even mentioning that the serial numbers and RNZAF identification markings could be retained), as this was the official US Navy scheme for drogue towing aircraft in pretty well all operational (and non-operational) areas under American command. The AOC of No. 1 (Islands) Group at Guadalcanal duly advised Wellington (RNZAF HQ) of this change of colour scheme in July 1944. And the only photograph I have ever seen to confirm this scheme was the one mentioned in my previous large post, taken at Rukuhia to best of my knowledge.
One of the Utility Flight drogue towers (NZ2012) was destroyed in an unusual stall accident just prior to landing at Piva strip (Bougainville) in April 1945 on a routine transport flight, with at least one death, and several injuries (a fierce fire was involved). In the evidence given (and recorded) at the official inquiry into this accident, an Australian Anti-Aircraft gunner happened to mention that he noticed the yellow RNZAF Hudson on final approach to the strip, a fact which caught my attention immediately, as colour schemes are rarely mentioned in such enquiries, such evidence rarely being considered relevant.
Not certain if Hudsons were used in New Zealand to any degree for drogue towing - they might have been, as they were obviously quite capable of doing so. RNZAF Catalinas were also used on such duties from time to time, although most of this would have been undertaken at Laucala Bay, Fiji (3 OTU), for Catalina air gunners, and also for Allied shipping gunners. Main drogue towers for air to air and ground/ship to air gunnery during WW2 included Gordons, Vincents/Vildes, Harvards, Hudsons, Catalinas, Avengers, and Kittyhawks (mostly 15 Sqdn in Tonga/Fiji in late 1942/early 1943, as they had no access to other aircraft types so had to use their own! They had no cable drums so used the old method of laying the cable on ground beside runway in such a way that the drogue was never dragged much at all, and the aircraft was already in air before the drogue leaped skyward.) Venturas were also quite capable of target towing (the South Africans certainly used theirs for the purpose for years after WW2), but so far as I know, we never did (Venturas were in great demand for other, usually operational, duties, and we also had sufficient other aircraft available for the job.
Looking forward to seeing the bumble-bee Hudson.
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Post by Antonio on Mar 18, 2023 13:25:01 GMT 12
Another interesting Hudson scheme in this photo: 2015-268.29Natural metal with (orange?) coloured engine nacelles and rear fuselage band? Also interesting is the C-47 (NZ3549?) with a partially painted fin?
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Post by Dave Homewood on Mar 18, 2023 13:46:31 GMT 12
Thanks Dave, Was that an RNZAF Official photo? Yes. But I do not have the number to hand. That bare metal Hudson with the orange stripe is one of the SAR Hudsons that were equipped to drop boats to people in the sea.
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Post by Mustang51 on Mar 18, 2023 13:47:58 GMT 12
The Fireflies also very interesting...any more of them?
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Post by Antonio on Mar 18, 2023 14:02:47 GMT 12
2015-268.41 Image from the Alexander MacDonald MacKenzie personal collection. Side view of a Royal Navy No. 812 Squadron Firefly, with wings folded, from HMS Theseus, on a dock. Believed to be in Auckland.
2015-268-43 Image from the Alexander MacDonald MacKenzie personal collection. 3/4 front view of a Royal Navy No. 812 Squadron Firefly on the aircraft carrier flight deck of HMS Theseus. Believed to be in Auckland.
2015-268-42 Image from the Alexander MacDonald MacKenzie personal collection. Front view of a Royal Navy No. 812 Squadron Firefly MB75?, from HMS Theseus. Believed to be at RNZAF Station Whenuapai.
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Post by davidd on Mar 18, 2023 17:23:45 GMT 12
Antonio's first photo (above) is of course a Firefly Mk. I (or NF Mk. IA, the later N/F version) and this one in particular (in non-airworthy state) was gifted to the RNZN in about 1947/48. I have always believed that this aircraft was from the INDEFATIGABLE which arrived in NZ waters in November 1945 (THESEUS was in NZ waters in 1947, and carried Seafire XV's, etc.). The letter "V" carried on fin of Firefly "294" (?) was allocated, apparently, to another RN Carrier whose name escapes me at the moment (VENGEANCE?) To the left of this image is the front half of a Seafire XV, which presumably came to NZ per THESEUS, and is probably the one also donated to the RNZN (who didn't really want it), and as with the Firefly, was "donated" to the RNZAF (who didn't want it either!)
Second photo shows two more Firefly NF. IA's, presume also from INDEFATIGABLE, 1945.
Third photo shows just one Seafire on far left (appears to be a Mk. III, Merlin engine) which was probably also from INDEFATIGABLE, also three other Fireflys and possibly another Seafire III directly behind the Firefly in front centre (not much to go on though!) Many of the Fireflys in this photo as well as the one above are, I think, the night fighter version, fitted with American radar equipment (known as ASH) carried precariously under the engine (as can be seen above). These would also be associates of the two Firefly night fighters in Antonio's previous post (one hour earlier), which would therefore date all photos as taken November 1945 if all my suppositions correct.
The aircraft carrier visits to New Zealand immediately postwar were fairly well covered in contemporary magazines and newspapers, as well as RNZAF unit histories, etc., and articles in AHSNZ Journals, so disappointing that they can still get thoroughly mixed up. Also I think the squadron number provided for the Fireflys may be "off", and should possibly be 1772, which was formed in May 1944, Burscough, embarked in RULER (American-built escort carrier) and INDEFATIGABLE (British-built heavy carrier), "disbanded March 1946". My quick "guess" comes from a quick perusal of British Naval Aircraft since 1912 (Owen Thetford, Putnum, 1982). Actually my knowledge of FAA squadrons is pretty thin, perhaps we have some real experts amongst members who can give a better opinion?
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Post by Mustang51 on Mar 18, 2023 17:43:01 GMT 12
They look marvellous.....my mother went out with a pilot from Indefatigable.. have an aerial view of it whai he gave to mum....hence the interest in Pacific Fleet RNFAA machines
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Post by McFly on Mar 18, 2023 18:01:24 GMT 12
They look marvellous.....my mother went out with a pilot from Indefatigable.. have an aerial view of it whai he gave to mum....hence the interest in Pacific Fleet RNFAA machines A previous forum thread on HMS Indefatigable's visit to New Zealand here ( link)..
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Post by angelsonefive on Mar 19, 2023 9:17:55 GMT 12
I woner why they didnt use the US roundel position? Orderes specified another psosition? Seems very close to the US position if that was the reason! Possibly conforming with the RAF specs for the positioning of roundels on aircraft ?
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Post by baz62 on Mar 19, 2023 9:58:11 GMT 12
I woner why they didnt use the US roundel position? Orderes specified another psosition? Seems very close to the US position if that was the reason! Possibly conforming with the RAF specs for the positioning of roundels on aircraft ? Yes thats what I meant by "Orders". If thats the case I would have thought the difference in position was very small and I doubt some senior officer would be out with a tape measure making sure it was exactly right!
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