Brilliant IWM Interview with Erk Eric Marsden

[Dave Homewood]

I am listening to an excellent interview recorded in 1993 by the IWM with Eric Marsden, who joined the RAF as a Fitter on 2 Sep 1939. His first posting was as a Fitter IIE u/t to Scampton with No. 83 Squadon on Handley Page Hampdens, right in the first two months of the war. Guy Gibson was one of the pilots there at this time. Then he did his training course, and was posted to No. 145 Squadron at Tangmere which had just converted to Hurricanes. They became operational during Dunkirk.

He talks about how his Flight Commander on No. 145 Squadron, Adrian Boyd, just before the Battle of Britain, had a specially-made one-off canopy made for his Hurricane that had blisters on the side about 18 inches long that you could stick your head into and look forward, backwards and down. Interesting. Boyd got a new Rotol prop Hurricane, ditching his de Havilland prop model, and he had the canopy swapped onto it.

He details what the groundcrew did during the Battle of Britain, and talks about the massive difference in refuelling and rearming a Hurricane versus a Spitfire, the latter being an ergonomic nightmare compared with the Hurricane.

It covers the whole war in 35 parts, each a half hour tape. I am only on part 6 so far. He's really detailed about the technical side of everything, plus the social side, and the general life of an erk. All the bull and the politics and squadron life. It's pure gold. One of the best interviews I have heard in a long time.

By the way in 1942 he came to New Zealand and served with the RNZAF which I cannot wait to get to!

I recommend anyone interested in air Force history to make time to listen:

www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80012986

[davidd]

Sounds very interesting Dave H, will have to get into that. I imagine that he washed up on New Zealand shores as a refugee from the Singapore debacle in early 1942, about 50 or 60 of them from memory, practically all experienced tradesmen, and most ending up with the new 14 and 15 Squadrons, and most proceeded on Pacific tours before returning to UK in late 1943 and early 1944.

Many of these RAF men resented ending up serving in a country on the furthest side of the earth and some got quite truculent about it, but I think the RNZAF was lucky to get so many relatively skilled tradesmen in our hour of greatest need. One RAF member who was not quite so useful (through no fault of his own) was one lonely "Ground Gunner", a trade unknown in the RNZAF; his "trade badge" comprised two stylised "G"s worn on the upper arm. I suppose the RNZAF had to scratch their collective heads and ask him how he thought he could assist the RNZAF - he might have been posted to an ADU as an armament instructor or some such.

Also you mention that the Spitfire was an "ergonomic nightmare". I think this may have been at least partially to do with fact that the early Spitfire had to be re-armed whilst one airmen fed the ammo belts in from underneath, laying on the ground, while another armourer sitting on wing pulled the belts through with a hooked gadget, a team effort for each of the eight guns. Think I have that right, this from watching (on Youtube, probably still there somewhere!) an early RAF training film, made about 1939/40, guess it was not too bad re-arming so long as the ground was not too muddy, probably more comfortable on grass than on concrete.

David D

[Dave Homewood]

I have not got as far as the NZ service yet, I'm on part 11 and he's still at Nov-Dec 1940 on No. 35 Squadron with the very first Halifaxes to enter service. But the write up on the page makes no mention of the Far East.

Re the Spitfire, yes re the re-arming process, plus more. You'll have to listen, I won't spoil it.

[Dave Homewood]

In Part 17, about 15 minutes in, Eric talks about a WAAF at RAF Leconsfield who deliberately sat on the tail of a Spitfire when it took off, and did a few circuits with her onboard. He claims she was a New Zealander. This was 1941 or so.

Does anyone know more about this?

I know there was a WAAF who famously rode on a Spitfire's tail accidentally. The was Margaret Horton as RAF Hibaldstow, a satellite airfield to RAF Kirton-in Lindsey, Lincolnshire, in 1945. It was not her.

Eric refers to it previously happening to a 'bod'. This was probably his story from the AUCKLAND STAR, 30 MARCH 1940:

RIGGER RIDES ON 'PLANE BAREBACK.

NOVEL FLIGHT.

Taken Aloft On Spitfire Fighter.

SITS ASTRIDE FUSELAGE.

British Official Wireless. (Received 12.30 p.m.) RUGBY. March 20.
A young aircraftsman, working as a rigger at an R.A.F. Fighter Command station, had the unique experience of "riding bareback" on a Spitfire machine, sitting astride the fuselage and facing tailwards.

The pilot, after taking off, was puzzled by the weight and the unresponsive behaviour of the tail of the aircraft, and made a circuit of the aerodrome. His passenger, gripping tight with his knees and arms, hung on grimly. Meanwhile, the ground staff, gravely anxious, summoned the medical officer and the emergency staff with equipment, including a fire engine. The pilot landed smoothly, the aircraftsman being none the worse.

[Dave Homewood]

Eric starts to talk about being posted to New Zealand in Part 19, just after he has just completed an oxygen plant training course.

[vultee43]

These interviews are fantastic. Love the fact it is from an 'Erk' perspective. A real look into squadron life. Wish there was one for RAAF/RNZAF in the Pacific. It's like listening to my Grandfather talk about Squadron life again.

[Dave Homewood]

Yes Eric Marsden is terrific, such a detailed memory, and he knows how to tell a story too. Lots of meandering from the main thread but it's usually worth listening to.

[Dave Homewood]

He actually gets to New Zealand in his story in Part 21!!

[baz62]

May 31, 2020 17:10:29 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

I know there was a WAAF who famously rode on a Spitfire's tail accidentally. The was Margaret Horton as RAF Hibaldstow, a satellite airfield to RAF Kirton-in Lindsey, Lincolnshire, in 1945. It was not her.

And interestingly it was on MK V Spitfire AB910 flown today by the RAF BBMF! Yes this series is a fascinating insight into squadron life. And as for RAAF/RNZAF I think Dave's recordings are giving us a similar look into life in the Pacific war.

[Dave Homewood]

Interestingly I have never seen Spitfires operated in NZ require an erk to sit on the tail while taxiing (I guess because they only operate on good grass strips or from seal), and I've never see a photo of erks sitting on the wingtips of RNZAF P-40's like they did in the RAF and RAAF in WWII.

[vultee43]

We were too lazy to walk.

[baz62]

Jun 1, 2020 10:14:48 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

Interestingly I have never seen Spitfires operated in NZ require an erk to sit on the tail while taxiing (I guess because they only operate on good grass strips or from seal), and I've never see a photo of erks sitting on the wingtips of RNZAF P-40's like they did in the RAF and RAAF in WWII.

From what I read the erks were on the tail to taxi out to the run-up area (usually close to the runway end) and provided extra weight while the pilot did an engine run-up. I recall reading the WAAF Margret Holton mentioned that. Perhaps if the Spitfire was only lightly loaded (ie: fuel as it was a local flight from memory) there was some concern of a tail lifting during a run up as you don't seem to see a Squadron go out with erks on their tails. Plus the run up would most likely be done as part of the daily inspection by the engine fitter and not be required to be done by the pilot as well?

[Dave Homewood]

Yes it is usually in the run up, but I have watched Spits doing run ups here many times in NZ and never seen anyone providing a counter-weight on the tail. While the warbird Spitfires in New Zealand don't have guns or ammo fitted they do have extra tanks on the wings in the place of the guns, and I know that at the end of each flight at least Doug's Tr.9 is usually refuelled to capacity so on the next run-up the wings will be at their highest weight before a flight.

[baz62]

So most likely a Service requirement but probably not needed if you made sure to hold the stick back.

[Dave Homewood]

I have just completed all 35 episodes of this amazing interview. It's really good value, lots of entertaining memories and and very detailed history. His service with the RNZAF was most enlightening indeed, as he was put in charge of an oxygen producing plant, extracting O² from air and filling cylinders for use in aeroplanes. This work took his to the Pacific, and he spent a considerable time on Vella Lavella (alongside the Black Sheep Squadron and the Flying Deuces). I did not realise that there had been an RNZAF presence on that island, though i was aware the RNZAF P-40's often used it as a staging base to refuel on the way to targets.

I now David Duxbury listened to this series on my recommendation, and he thoroughly enjoyed it ad learned a lot, like me.

If you take the plunge to listen to the whole series (and I recommend it) beware tat when you get to part 29, skip it, go to 30 (which is actually 29) and listen through the numbers to 35, then head back to 29 which is actually 35. The last episode has somehow gotten out of place.

[davidd]

I too noticed the problem with Episode 29, but as I had jumped around quite a bit, I never got to the point of locating the missing episode definitively, although I did listen to most of the final 5 or 6 episodes.

Like most others who have voiced opinions, I was very impressed with this series, and the extent of the detail. He obviously had an enquiring mind, and could put things into perspective. I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for him to be asked to help determine the reasons for the loss of American fighter pilots (never mentioned any other aircrew members involved in these losses) due to suspected problems with the oxygen systems, or the oxygen itself, and then when he had done so, to be treated as he was, with suspicion, and contempt. There was something seriously wrong with some of the American technical people in charge of supplying medical-grade oxygen to their air forces, who seemed to have very little if any detailed knowledge of the dangers inherent in producing this product, and one can only wonder at the types of person responsible for this fiasco. Heads should have rolled for this self-induced tragedy, and I would like to think that whoever placed such cretins in charge of this process were ultimately court martialled for gross incompetence, but I do wonder.

Eric Marsden also pondered on many practices and procedures used by various air forces in peace and war, and wondered why they were still in use, but one gathers that these were (mostly) gradually remedied with time, and enough people noticed the obvious shortcomings of systems that were conceived in peacetime to maximise financial efficiency, but placed the air force at a great disadvantage when actual war conditions arrived. Come to think of it, this still goes on to an extent, probably all around the World. He also pondered on types of servicemen (mostly pre-war) who managed to wangle themselves into permanent positions at transit centres and training establishments where they set up their own little kingdoms of "free enterprise" and became a source of great dissatisfaction to all and sundry with their graft and corruption. I have heard about a few individuals in the wartime RNZAF in the Pacific theatre who fulfilled somewhat similar occupations, although some of the worst were uncovered and returned to NZ for punishment, sometimes for reasons of their own safety!

David D

[Dave Homewood]

His memory was so sharp for detail. An a great storyteller. I reckon he would have been a great teacher in his postwar profession.

[Dave Homewood]

One thing I found interesting is he mentioned that the UK Pound Sterling was worth US$5.00 in wartime. That is extraordinary in wartime when Britain owed the US so much in debts and Lend Lease. The UK must have been much better placed with its wealth in 1939 than the USA, and the tables completely turned by 1945 I guess.

Even now the pound still buys more, US$1.24 to the pound. But that is a fair old drop from $5.00.

[vultee43]

They way they're going the USD will be less than the Peso soon.

[davidd]

Although no economist of any kind, I always thought the UK was practically bankrupt (balance of payments, etc.) in 1939, possibly reinforced by knowledge that American armament manufacturers always insisted on "cash and carry" arrangements for all British (and probably French) purchases of same. When the cash had almost run out, Roosevelt felt compelled to (against fierce opposition) set up the "Lend-Lease" system so that the flow of armaments across the Atlantic did not falter. The USA was very worried about Hitler, but did not feel inclined to participate in the brawl until eventually being forced to do so by the Japanese, much aided by the swing in the opinion of the average American after Pearl harbour. All comments welcome, of course.
David D