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Post by 30sqnatc on Jul 8, 2020 17:47:55 GMT 12
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Post by Dave Homewood on Jul 8, 2020 18:05:06 GMT 12
Wow the Pinzgauer did not last long.
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Post by saratoga on Jul 8, 2020 18:14:34 GMT 12
The Pinzagauer was a dying dog even before we purchased it.
'The fleet will supplement other vehicles the military does not have, such as protected ambulances, and although not a combat vehicle, it can be fitted with machine guns.' Very strange statement, going by that it also supplements the Air Combat Force, we do not have!.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jul 8, 2020 18:39:04 GMT 12
What he meant to say the purchase includes protected ambulances which NZDF has not had since M113 were withdrawn
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chis73
Flight Lieutenant
Posts: 87
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Post by chis73 on Jul 9, 2020 11:16:51 GMT 12
Wow the Pinzgauer did not last long. It's shameful enough that the armoured Pinzgauer has lasted in service as long as it has! See this Newsroom article from 2 years ago ( link) Rather than "supplement" I would take the article to mean "support" (alas, copy editors are a luxury these days) - it will have to improvise as an armoured ambulance as needed. I doubt we will get a dedicated ambulance version in this tranche of 43 vehicles. Hopefully, this is just the start: maybe we can make small purchases of specialist variants in future, to furnish the various combat support (command, engineer & maybe mortar/gun carrier types most urgently needed) & combat service support roles. What really needs to happen now is for the Army to put one of the retired Armoured Pinzgauers in the Museum at Waiouru, preferably one with a broken axle (to be representative of it's normal condition) and hopefully made into swiss-cheese by the smallest infantry support weapon possible (7.62mm AP rounds, 12.7mm HMG or 40mm grenade MG) - with a nice big sign including a nice clear headshot of Mark Burton saying "Yes, the NZDF was really expected to use these, and this is the guy who decided to buy them", and smaller photos of Helen Clark, John Key, Bill English, Phil Goff, Wayne Mapp, Jonathan Coleman & Gerry Brownlee with the caption "And these people failed to do anything about the inadequacy of this vehicle for 20 years." Then place the vehicle on display next to one that has been rigged for remote control and test-driven over an anti-tank mine/IED. Just to make the point. |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jul 9, 2020 19:08:43 GMT 12
Then place the vehicle on display next to one that has been rigged for remote control and test-driven over an anti-tank mine/IED. Just to make the point. how because after the blast it will still be in orbit |
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Post by exkiwiforces on Jul 15, 2020 1:15:04 GMT 12
Just a quick question,
Well done on the team at getting this project over the line and I hope you had a hand it as well? I know a 2 ex RNZAC Staff Officers in CHCH would be having a quiet chuckle to themselves, as they told me their version of events during the LAV3 and the up armoured Piniz’s purchase 20 odd yrs ago during a semi formal dinner on my last visit to NZ and their battles with the Dobson & Jerry show.
Anyway my question is, we had 60 up armoured Piniz’s on strength before they were quietly retried from service and they have now been replaced by 43 Bushmasters. Does that mean we are likely to see a 2nd tranche of an additional 17 Bushmasters in the near future or is the NZ Army looking at the Hawkie Vehicle down the track or did old Rob”o put his methodist or Presbyterian hat (I can’t remember what Dunedin church he is from when I had a few beers with him many moons ago) on and said no the other 17 Bushmasters?
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Post by nighthawknz on Jul 18, 2020 13:53:10 GMT 12
Just a quick question, Well done on the team at getting this project over the line and I hope you had a hand it as well? I know a 2 ex RNZAC Staff Officers in CHCH would be having a quiet chuckle to themselves, as they told me their version of events during the LAV3 and the up armoured Piniz’s purchase 20 odd yrs ago during a semi formal dinner on my last visit to NZ and their battles with the Dobson & Jerry show. Anyway my question is, we had 60 up armoured Piniz’s on strength before they were quietly retried from service and they have now been replaced by 43 Bushmasters. Does that mean we are likely to see a 2nd tranche of an additional 17 Bushmasters in the near future or is the NZ Army looking at the Hawkie Vehicle down the track or did old Rob”o put his methodist or Presbyterian hat (I can’t remember what Dunedin church he is from when I had a few beers with him many moons ago) on and said no the other 17 Bushmasters? The army didn't want the armoured Pinzgauers when they were bought... they weren't ever up to standard never really meet the NZDF requirements never meet the task as of them. (I don't think they have ever been deployed don't quote me on that though) The NZDF and NZ Army wanted the Bushmaster even back then. I doubt they will get more armoured Bushmasters, but will most likely get other lighter armoured vehicles like the Hawkei PMV or similar. This way they will have the right vehicle for the job at hand. ie; there is no need for a LAV to patrol a village as the villagers see "tank" even though it's not when on a peace-keeping mission, when a Bushmaster can do the job and same and if on a very low threat operation an armoured Hawkei can do the job. It doesn't look as intimidating to the locals. Also means we can fly the Bushmaster to where ever, or a couple of Hawkei's instead of having to wait for shipping. |
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jul 18, 2020 16:24:13 GMT 12
'The army didn't want the armoured Pinzgauers when they were bought... they weren't ever up to standard never really meet the NZDF requirements never meet the task as of them. (I don't think they have ever been deployed don't quote me on that though) The NZDF and NZ Army wanted the Bushmaster even back then.'
They were deployed to East Timor late in the piece when NZ took over the role of providing protected transport for the UN Quick Reaction Force. LAVs actually matched the role much better but as you said 'perception'.
Back in Pinzgauer purchase days the Bushmaster was too heavy for NZ roads according to NZTA predecessor so was a non starter.
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Post by nighthawknz on Jul 18, 2020 23:41:04 GMT 12
Back in Pinzgauer purchase days the Bushmaster was too heavy for NZ roads according to NZTA predecessor so was a non starter. So an 11 tonne vehicle was too heavy but a 17 tonne LAV isn't or a fully load 25 tonne truck (and now I believe legal up to 50 tonnes) I am not to sure on that one... |
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Post by saratoga on Jul 19, 2020 0:44:47 GMT 12
Axle weight loadings.
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Post by 30sqnatc on Jul 19, 2020 10:07:59 GMT 12
Yeah Saratoga has it. 15 t on two axles (original Bushmaster laden weight) is very different from 17 t over four axles. You definitely don't see any two axle 17 t or 25 t trucks. and civilian trucks designed for on road use have dual rear tyres unlike military vehicles which generally have single tyres more suited to cross country use and being able to deflate from a central control.
Note also the vehicle mass and dimensions rules are significantly more liberal now than around 20 years ago when the question was first asked.
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Post by madmac on Jul 19, 2020 17:20:02 GMT 12
The point with axle loadings is the road wear is a function of the 4th power, so doubling the axle loading results in 16 x the road wear. So road wear due to the Bushmaster is ~10 x that of the LAV.
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