Manchester Bomber codes with RNZAF crew member

[planecrazy]

As my long winded title describes I am looking for the squadron codes for an
Avro Manchester bomber that was lost over Germany 26/6/42.

I have managed to find the serial number and the crew, as you will see in the list
below a New Zealander was in the crew. My wife's great uncle Larry Thompson
was also lost and I would like to do up a model I have made with this machines
markings as a tribute.



Would be most grateful if someone could point me in the right direction of how
I would find the squadron codes and which if it's possible which model of the
Manchester this would have been, early or late?

Thank you..

Manchester IL7299 of 50SQN RAF crashed near the mission target of Bremen in Germany with all on board killed:
HUGALL, Robert Leslie (Sergeant) 406318 RAAF
PETERS, Jasper Stormond (Sergeant) 12419 RAAF
THOMPSON, Lawrence Chase (Sergeant) 402622 RAAF
JOHNSON, Edgar Griffiths (Sergeant) 403813 RAAF
HARDY, Niel Malcolm (Sergeant) 404903 RAAF
LINDSAY, James William (Sergeant) 403194 RAAF
ROY, John Charles (Sergeant) 41361 RNZAF

[Dave Homewood]

That should read as Manchester I, L7299. The I is the model of the Manchester, and L7299 the serial.

Errol Martyn's book 'For Your Tomorrow' Volume One does not record a code for the aircraft.

[Dave Homewood]

No. 50 Squadron's codes were VN. Not sure of the individual code.

[planecrazy]

Sept 20, 2020 11:50:32 GMT 12 Dave Homewood said:

That should read as Manchester I, L7299. The I is the model of the Manchester, and L7299 the serial.

Errol Martyn's book 'For Your Tomorrow' Volume One does not record a code for the aircraft.

Thanks Dave, so if I'm to be accurate this machine should have the middle fin and the smaller
rudders as apposed to the later model Manchesters that had the same fins as a Lancaster?

[Dave Homewood]

I'm no expert on the Manchester but you may be right.

[baronbeeza]

www.no-50-and-no-61-squadrons-association.co.uk/app/download/5802508903/50+SQUADRON+ORB+1939+1943+Revision+1.pdf.

[baz62]

I thought all the Manchesters had three fins as the prototype Lancaster started out with three too.

[baz62]

Ah I think you are right From Wikipedia:
First prototype originally with twin tail. Due to lack of directional stability, it had a third fin added. Became a training airframe in November 1942.
Manchester L7247
Second prototype first flown 26 May 1940, fitted with armament, became a training airframe in October 1941.
Manchester I
First production version with 80 ft wing and 28 ft twin tail and additional central fin later added; 20 of this type were built.
Manchester IA
Main production version with 80 ft wing, twin tail with 33 ft enlarged tailplane. It also had taller fins and rudders.
Manchester IB
As Manchester IA but with thin-gauge fuselage skin.
Manchester IC
As Manchester IB but with 2 x 2,520 hp Bristol Centaurus. Installed in one airframe but never flown.[ii]
Manchester II
As Manchester IB but with 95 ft wing.
Manchester IIA
As Manchester II but with 2 x Bristol Centaurus. None built.
Manchester III BT308
This version was powered by four Merlin engines with increased wingspan; also, the three fins and rudders of the Manchester I were retained. This variant was the first prototype of the later Avro Lancaster.

[planecrazy]

Early model Manchester I with central fin and smaller rudders, which I believe the
machine I wish to model, L7299 should look like.


Later model Manchester with larger rudders as per the Lancaster.


Also of note there is a difference in serial, the below information from the link posted by
baronbeeza has the serial as L7289 not L7299 which I had found elsewhere. My wife's
great uncle was Lawrence Chase Thompson, known as "Larry" locally.

www.no-50-and-no-61-squadrons-association.co.uk/app/download/5802508903/50+SQUADRON+ORB+1939+1943+Revision+1.pdf.

From the above link.
No. 50 Squadron Royal Air Force In World War Two The Diary of a WWII Bomber Squadron- Part 1 to Part 4, 1937 to 1942.
June 1942 based RAF Swinderby 25/ 26 June- The Third ‘1000 Bomber raid’- BREMEN

ONE AIRCRAFT FAILED TO RETURN, Manchester L7289 with Sgt’s 402622 RAAF Lawrence Chase THOMPSON (W/AG), 12419 RAAF Jasper S. PETERS (FE), NZ41361 John Charles ROY, RNZAF, (Pilot), 403194 RAAF James William LINDSAY (AG), 404903 RAAF Neil Malcolm HARDY (W/AG), 406318 RAAF Robert Leslie Hugall (NAV) and 403813 RAAF Edgar Griffiths JOHNSON (AG), all killed.

Post war it was established that the aircraft was shot down (Flak) at 02.00 hours 26 June and crashed in a field at Grambke near Bremen (possibly now known as the District of Burg-Grambke). It is believed that the crew were all interred at WALLER CEMETERY, BREMEN but after the war were moved to Becklingen War Cemetery, Soltau, Nikedersachsen, Germany. References “For Your Tomorrow” Vol.1 by Errol Martyn (which chronicles all the RNZAF losses) and the CWGC.

Would anyone know if there is a way of associating the serial with the machines squadron code?

Thanks to all who have contributed, very interesting and also rewarding for our community.

[Bruce]

50 Sqn should have VN squadron codes in 1942, just need to find the aircraft code letter !

[planecrazy]

Sept 21, 2020 16:54:55 GMT 12 Bruce said:

50 Sqn should have VN squadron codes in 1942, just need to find the aircraft code letter !

Thanks Bruce, is there some way of matching the aeroplane's serial to the specific squadron code?

[Dave Homewood]

You'd need to look in the Squadron's Operations Record Book, available from the UK National Archives, at a price. And then there is no guarantee that it will mention both the serial and the code together.

You might try asking on the RAF Commands forum.

And btw what Bruce said I'd already said up the page.

[errolmartyn]

ORBs and other digitised files can presently be viewed for no charge through the National Archives website. One of the few benefits of Covid-19!

Errol

[pjw4118]

Bill Chorleys RAF Bomber Command Losses is another source that doesnt list an a/c letter for this Manchester. As well as the Manchester quite a collection of aircraft went on this 1000 bomber raid to Bremen including Whitleys , Blenheims and the odd Hampden. Of the 52 aircaft listed as lost that night , 33 were from Training units.

[Dave Homewood]

I looked up the ORB for the month involved, but sadly in the section where aircraft and crew is detailed there's no mention of this crew or aircraft at all for that raid. I do not know why they're not listed, because in the Form 540 is is noted that they failed to return from the raid and all had been posted as missing.

[davidd]

The absence of aircraft lost on operations from the Form 541s is not uncommon - 75 Squadron also seemed to follow this practice in certain periods, although they may have been alluded to on the Form 540s.
David D

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks David. I had wondered if it was commonly found. A pity really but undoubtedly when an aircraft failed to return the squadron had rheems of other forms and paperwork bumf to fill out in triplicate too, it's just not been archived to well.

[planecrazy]

So may have solved my mystery if the below link is correct, I'm a little confused
as all 50 Sqn machines I have found pictures of have worn VN Squadron codes?

www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-avro-679-manchester-i-grambke-7-killed

My query is if the below picture is accurate taken from the above link?


PS just found a 50Sqn Lancaster with a QX squadron code, should the above
picture have QX instead of QR perhaps?

[Dave Homewood]

No. 50 Squadron RAF seems to have had at different times the code letters QX and VN.

QR belonged to No. 61 Squadron and No. 223 Squadron.

[planecrazy]

Thanks Dave, so if I am reading this correctly the QR-J code would be incorrect,
chances are the machine I am wishing to model should probably wear QX-J or
possibly VN-J, I am grateful for you taking time to assist with this.